I was just wondering whether we can really ever understand another persons culture .
Perhaps we can only accept it.
All those little things you take in as you grow up that make up culture. Perhaps you can only understand that from the inside?
It may just be me but a lot of world trouble seems about cultural clashes at the moment.
I begin to think philosophy is more important than politics. How can we change the world if we don't understand it (to reverse the usual adage).
Just a thought.

I think culture is only a means of identification and not the reason or cause. Much in the same way religion is often the identifier and not the cause.
When I say Identifier, in effect I mean a method of clearly defining and labeling the conflicting parties.

Most people could quite happily visit a country culturally different from their own and experience nothing but all things positive and enlightening. Its called a holiday and most people do it. Granted some do return with the notion that it would have been more enjoyable but for the indigenous population.

Greed and self-interest is the usual culprit.
It’s the thing that gets most politicians out off bed in the mornings.

The thing is, politicians and big business understand people all too well. If there's money to be made they will fan the xenophobic flames that burn in most of us. Before you know it you are convinced that civilization is being threatened by Inuit’s conspiring to undermine the 'Free World' by deploying genetically modified seal pups capable of traveling immense distances. Having reached their destination they occupy people’s fridges, piss on the butter and drink all the milk.

Being from Northern Ireland, I am frequently at risk of manipulation by arseholes. And here as elsewhere, arseholes (previous occupation is usually solicitor) make all the decisions.

I once told a unionist politician that I fancied his wife but would probably marry his daughter.
Catholic boys like Protestant girls and vice versa.
But Jesus Christ you soon know what the real issue is when you lay it on the line like this. He didn’t want a Catholic anywhere near his daughter’s fun zones, it didn’t matter to him what she thought.

He was imposing his dogma on others, using his religion as justification for sectarian bigotry.
I was trying to impose on other things but that is besides the point.
This is apathy. He was conditioned to resent me and didn't bother to make the effort to question why.
Have people lost the ability to formulate their own values and opinions?


Germans, Russians, North Koreans, Vietnamese, Iraqis, Muslims, Inuit’s....... how long will this list get?

Whats that seal pup doing in the fridge????

Well Orin that certainly was a mouthful!!!!!!!
I enjoyed reading it.
I know your part of the world quite well but only as a visiting person (albeit of catholic origin) and consequentially never had any experiences of that bigotted culture to the degree you describe
(except for second hand experiences thru friends).
On a broader front my point is that culture is built up of millions of pieces of an experiential jig saw so can we realy comprehend other cultures?
I know that takes us nowhere but I am interested in others views like the one you expressed so colourfully!!!!!!!!!

Several good responses come to mind you could have given the man, but Acc would have a fit if I posted any of them. (If you want a few, e-mail me and I'll give them to ya.) *Smiles Wickedly*

Culture, as related to a group of people, is nothing more than the majority of those people's likes and dislikes. I've been told I'm not up with American Culture because I don't wear jeans. I have strong distastes for certain governments, and their policies, but I do not transfer that to the people who are ruled by those governments. I'll not go into more details. (Any who have been with the Tír long enough, probably already know why.)

We should give every person room for her or his own individual culture, for each person truely has one unique to themselves. My culture is comprised of my personal tastes, as yours is comprised of your tastes.

The question then becomes, can we ever understand each other, or must we just accept one another for being who we are? If we can accept one another like this, understanding may come, but is irrelevant. Acceptance of that which we cannot understand is tantamount to our survival. The lack there of has caused more wars, crime and devastation than we can imagine.

Someone once said that if two people hold exactly the same opinions on everything, one of them was not needed. Forget trying to peg people by the "Culture" of their society. The culture of the individual is a beautiful thing, and it has more meaning than any other cultural definitions going.

I think i understand what you are saying Daryl however a rejection of american culture does not deny that you have absorbed it in the first place.
I wonder if it is possible to create an individual culture as you state it?
It is possibly a bit like family values in that we often absorb them subliminally to an extent.
When younger I rejected my catholicism vehemently but now see that meant I was still carrying its impact round with me.
To acknowledge that we caanot fully understand another culture as if we grew up in it does not leave the only option as acceptance but perhaps informs our prejudices or could do so.

Im afraid your individuality is defined by your personal tastes, not your culture.

"Forget trying to peg people by the "Culture" of their society."

What have I been going on about?
I go about my business all day in a predominantly mono cultural society and still people will find some micro-facet of diversity to validate their intolerence.

If you ask me culture is the end result of historical legacy.

P.S. I'm married to a Protestant she radiates loveliness and religion isn't and never was an issue to us.

Well certainly history past and present is a large contributory factor in culture. I am not sure about end result as my original point was about living cultures as opposed say to ancient ones such as roman.
I do hear a lot of people on the radio for example demanding respect for their culture regardless of whether some of the norms in it might be repugnant in some others eyes.
mmmmm could be the old define your terms time Orin and daryl ; what do you both mean by culture?

All Culture, starts with the personal tastes of an individual. Others develop similar tastes, and once that happens, people call it culture. It is a collection of individual tastes. I do not reject American Culture, I simply do not believe it exists as something foreign to the individual. If I am from America, American Culture by definition, includes my personal tastes, else it is not American Culture.

If today, everyone in America were to begin wearing a red sash, it would be accepted as part of American Culture. In reality, it would be due to a mass collective of individuals who like wearing red sashes, followed by those who do not stand on their own. They would follow the crowd of red sash wearers, not because they liked them, but they wanted to fit in with those who do.

Culture is caused by, supported by and is perpetualted by individual tastes. It used to be accepted in the Culture of the Celts, to take the heads of their defeated enemies in battle, and make glasses or door post ornaments out of them. The individuals who comprise later generations ceased that part of our culture, because they did not like it, or one could say, they lost the taste for it.

I have my own culture, because I have my own tastes, and I enjoy them. I accept you, because you have your own tastes, and your own unique way of doing things. Your individual culture may influence mine, because you may introduce me to something I had not done before that I liked. I do not need to understand your culture, to accept it. I may never understand it, or in time through studying your history, I might come to understand it. If I do, it will be that much richer for me, but since I cannot learn the history of every Culture in existance, I choose to Accept them all, and study the points I find interesting.

I can agree with a great deal of that Daryl but strangely in accepting some of your conclusions some of your assumptions are more difficult.
firstly mush of culture is value laden and therefore your example re the red sash is not useful there,
Of course fashion can start with one person but they are a product of their culture so there is a loop there.
I think statements that start with ALL can be difficult to maintain.For a start some cultures are more individualistic than others often traceable to their history as Orin might say.
Teenagers are often seen as a subculture and they embrace uniformity whilst calling it rebellion. Nothing seems new.....if you compare David Bowie, Alice Cooper and Iggy Pop hey presto you have Marilyn Manson!!!
Your belief in the power of the individual to shape culture in its broadest sense does seem to ignore the power of mass movements.
I am still wondering about this conundrum about understanding another culture as I wonder if any amount of external observation or study can be like even a small part of growing up in and being nurture for better or for worse in another culture.

To a large degree culture is imposed on us. Customs, laws and most importantly, language are our primary controlling influences.

I could for some reason suddenly decide to make German my first language. I would be linguistically isolated and have little or no chance of influencing others to adopt my curious cause.

Deviation from the law is actively discouraged through threat of incarceration and denial of other civil liberties.

Cultural change requires more of a catalyst than the whims of a free spirited individualist.
Apart from a few civilizations throughout history fundamental cultural change came from the barrel of a gun, or sword, depending on the era.
Those wishing to control and subdue other nations have to eradicate the culture of the vanquished.

Ireland is a good example. Gaelic has been replaced with English and Brehon law with Crown law.
People didn't decide they liked it that way. They were forced to conform through threat of violence. You can probably apply this to a multitude of nations.

People are very habitual creatures. Normally we do or best to avoid situations that may cause us distress. Unfamiliar situations can make us feel vulnerable and subsequently anxious. Losing everything that identifies you, as a race must be a traumatic upheaval.

Therefore 'guest on a quest' is probably on the right lines on his assumption that familiarising ourselves with other cultures is a start.
A start that is in alleviating our own anxieties.
This is very much a reciprocal venture.

i have been learning a lot about Brehon law from reading the historical crime novels of Peter Trevelayn and find I would like to know more!!!!!!
But I digress because I feel culture is also like a decoupage od old magazines on a jewellery box made up as it is of many layers with bits showing thru and bits to be guessed at, As an outsider to all cultures but my own can i really guess or understand those bits beyond view from the mundane to the crucial.
I look at countries with a non christain dominant faith such as India or Pakistan and what can I really know of them? i am interested in India , have been there twice and did Indian History at university. Do i can i really understand what it feels like to be an Indian? Strangely i knew more of Indian history than some peole I met there but I wa still the Outsider. Is that just inevitable. As I said at the start of this quest muchnworld conflict seems currently to come from culture clash I am interested in what others feel about this area.

If you settled there, you would have a better chance of being considered, other than an outsider. Once again, that requires you, the individual to make a decision. To Move or not to Move. After Moving, you would find that you would still be considered a foreigner, even after you changed your citizenship. In time, you would be considered an insider, once you began joining fully into society. You the individual, would have to adopt their culture as your own. While that means you are allowing an existing culture to influence yours, it has happened because of individual tastes. Yours namely, accepting the Cultural Norms of India. Before you did this, you would have already had to have had strong interests in India.

I do not agre that time would make you an insider as you put it. You would still be missing those thousands of nuances and things absorbed from birth up that go to make up a large part of that or any culture. You would also be missing the cultural identity that seems natural to someone who is genuinely a part of that society in a natural sense. I have heard that Indian people bornin the UK feel that sense ofislocation when visiting their mother land for the first time and this applies to people of Irish origin visiting there. Many people from Tir must have done that trip and I would love to hear their views.

People will always feel isolated going somewhere they have never gone. I feel isolated visiting family members I've not seen in a long while. That has nothing to do with culture. Others accepting you as a member of their community may take time, but if they are not bigotted, they will do so. If they are, there is little point worrying about their opinion anyway.

I have traveled a great deal in my life, visited numerous other countries, and lands. I have never felt like an outsider, because, I get involved with the community I am in as quickly as possible. If one does not find acceptance in a community, it is likely, that they are not making an effort to join the community.

I knew a man who moved to a foreign land, and after taking up residence, he destroyed religious symbols on his property because they were not of his religion, and they offended him. Obviously he and his family were not well received. People are the same wherever you go. There are always the good, the and clueless.

The Christian Bible advises never remove an ancient boundary stone. The man I am referring to above would have done well to have followed this advise. Acceptance is not understanding, but you must first accept, if you hope to ever understand.

This is absolutely fabulous!! I myself am not an educated woman. I have very simple ideas & thoughts about religion and politics. I can't wait to print this page and read at my leisure. But, as an American a persons culture consisted of a persons ethnic background, traditions, and beliefs. (or so I was taught in grade school) Now as an adult, culture is something you visit on vacation or read about in a book, etc.. So back to the question, can we totally understand another's culture. Probably not, but with tolerance and respect we can gain insight from anothers culture. Also, when we find things about another culture we don't agree with, like etc..do we have voice it?
And so the great experiment continues...........

Just when I thought this section was going to disappear in an esoteric cloud of vapour.....

Is the issue here concerned with understanding different cultures, 'or' understanding the influences that form different cultures?

Fretting over not understanding a different culture, is like saying I don't understand a pot of jam, (or jelly, for the American people)

We are suspicious of their agenda, is that it?

Does ethnic background make that much difference?
Samantha Mumba is part African but she may as well be from Tipperary for all the influence its had on her.

Or! are we to believe! "Just because a cat has kittens in a fish shop, it doesn't make them kippers".

Discuss.............

I think Orin that the way culture (in its broadest sense) permeates us all is shown by your and Daryl's response to a simple question at the very start of the discussion.I asked or wondered aloud about the influence culture clash is having in todays world.
Your responses have been largely based on tribal cultural differences in Northern Ireland.
Daryl's responses have been heavily weighted on a new world emphasis on the role of the individual. He likes that bit of the Declaration of Independance about self evident truths and all people being equal. Apparently the rights of black people and native americans were not self evident.
What you have in common is a male cultural approach of aggression in debate. I posted a concern seeking others views and got a lot of testosterone from you both. You have soaked up , (perhaps from access to too much British TV),a chip on the shoulder anti intellectualism that sees any discussion of an open ended nature as esoteric. I find many discussions on these boards more erudite than esoteric but then I am seeking knowledge and envy you and daryl your access to ready answers.

You see!
Now look what’s happened.
Everyone's adopted a defensive posture and suddenly all trust and respect has vanished.

This is the problem with posting to a message board. Like an international envoy, you send them off fully briefed, with good intentions and all they do is misrepresent you. Before you know it you have morphed into some kind of self-obsessed, egotistical (and in this case) testosterone fuelled bully.

Dear Guest.
Where do I start?
I know, an apology.
And that Daryl owes you an apology as well.

I laughed, a lot, when I read your last response and on reflection can see your point regarding the delivery of some of my opinions. You seem to think though, that I was casting dispersions on the intellectual/philosophical probing of your questions. Again I must apologise and can assure you I wasn't referring to anyone with regards to my remark about 'esoteric clouds'. This was my effort at creating a metaphor to depict a possible scenario for the end of discussions.

Anyway! You were the epitome of restraint and understanding throughout the discussion and I can see you are disappointed with the seemingly aggressive undertones inherent in some of my remarks. As before, they are not targeted responses, just rhetorical questions, albeit delivered in too clumsy a fashion for a message board.

It wasn't a simple question though, It was a question simple put.
Would you like me to try agin?
Are we still friends or do I need another dose of admonishment??


P.S. I can see you are not adverse to a bit of a fight yourself.

An apple easily bruised is an apple never the less....... or some such nonsense!!!!!
I am still game for a discussion and I take your point re message boards, same thing seems to go with emails. This is a two dimensional medium and does not lend itself to shades of irony, satire, wit(full or half witted!!!!!.)
Perhaps I should plead guilty to my own set of cultural influences. The conscious ones are bad enough but the others invisible to me but easily spotted by others are like stains that you can have a devil of a time coming to terms with.
P.S. I do not know daryl but am willing to guess that he may not thank you for your apology on his behalf....lol......

I can only speak for myself, but my answers are born from a lifetime of experiences. They might well seem a ready answer to you, but they took years to form.

You may be male or female, however, I do not think it matters, in this discussion. I am certain that my being male or female has nothing to do with my views.

What the Declaration of Independence says effects my judgement and opinions about as much as the Magna Carta. I need no document to tell me that each person on this planet is the most important person on this planet to someone, even if it is only themself.

I must admit, my opinion of you fell after you seeing your attacks on those who responded to you. Attack my positions all day long, that is what a debate is about. Bringing up something not remotely related to the debate, such as the historical equality of ethnic groups in the country I live in, and you demean your own position.

The Irish immigrants in America were chained to machines and worked until they dropped dead. Their bodies were unchained and a someone else was chained in their place. Was that my fault? I am the Child of Irish immigrants. That was the fault of two groups of people the first group were those who made their fortunes off of the lives of others, be they African, European, Indian, Asian, or Atlantean for that matter. The second group responsible was those who sat idly by and allowed the first group to move with impunity. I belong to neither of those groups and subscribe to neither mindset.

I make no apologies for my beliefs, however bizarre they may seem to others. They have been stated as mine, and you may accept them, or reject them at your discretion.

Back to the subject at hand, I have answered everyone of your points in your initial Query. I shall list breifly my responses to your points:

1)We must accept cultures before we can understand them.
2)It is not necessary to grow up in a land, to be an insider in a culture, all you have to do is immerse yourself in it.
3)We change the world, and our society's culture, by not subscribing to the mass mindset, but rather staying true to our own beliefs and letting others know what our opinion is, and more importantly, why it is what it is.

A final note: If you think that something needs to be changed, first change yourself. Then tell others why you changed. If your points are valid, they will change theirselves too. Buddah, Mohammed, Ghandi, Susan B Anthony and Martin Luther King Jr. were all individual people, who thought something in their culture was screwed up, and they changed their world.

Daryl may not thank me.

So, I hereby apologise for any distress caused by my act of sheer arrogance. It is not in my remit to take the liberty of apologising on behalf of all Testosterone Induced Ranters.
Under no circumstances am I implying he is a Testosterone Induced Ranter.

END OF APOLOGY

Back to the top of the message board I think.

...........'can we really ever understand another person's culture'

Hmmm, let me see.............

Ooops!

I've just noticed the rules and regulations for this site and am I on thin ice or what.

That's the problem with mixing your chats.
In future I will undergo a period of detox before committing digital ink to monitor.

Maybe empathizing with and acknowledging the struggle inherent in its evolution, is a way of understanding an unfamiliar culture.
Is it an idea to try and connect on some sympathetic human level?

Perhaps daryl we will just have to agree to differ as the saying goes.
If you re read my posts you will see that I attack no one.Perhaps it is just a matter of style but yours is more didactic than mine.
My point about the Declaration of Independance is about the way it is ingested not just on a conscious level yours or anyones but the impact of icons such as that in american culture .There are other such influences in all sorts of cultures.
As we cannot or may not want to immerse ourselves in other cultures that does not really effect my original concern which was that real or perceived cultural clashes seem to be creating a lot of pain and turmoil at the moment.
My point about the slaves and native americans is to do with the danger of self evident truths and the human ability to not see other people.
Perhaps that goes with not recognising native or black africn culture.
I am not american bashing or daryl bashing.You can apply the same process to Australia not giving aboriginals the vote till the 1970's,Apartheid, Spanish behaviour in Mexico etc etc
Perhaps our differences in themselves illustrate culture clash on a very minor scale.

I was at the point of telling you lets agree to disagree a couple of days ago, but I refrained from doing so, because I find this to be an interesting topic. My style is as you say, didactic, because I do not think that inflamed or accusatory responses are befitting a philisophical discussion.

If you re-read your own posts, you will notice that you left focusing on Orin's and my stated positions, and began focusing on why our cultural backgrounds brought us to those positions.

You must never do this, if you hope to understand others. You can not understand someone you have alienated. It is imperative to understanding others, that you must first know what motivates yourself.

Learn what motivates you, what you see might frighten you. If so, change it. Only after you have accomplished that, can you remove personal bias from your analysis of the motives of others, and be able to see them for what they truly are: Beautiful in their uniqueness,
Awesome in their persona
Fantasic in their flaws

Remember, Marble with serpentine flaws in it, is coveted more so than that which is uniform and flawless.

And if you read my last post you would see that I was postulating that all of us carry more cultural influences than we are aware of but may stand out to others. I pointed out what seemed to me the influences that you and Orin could be operating under.
This was not to imply that only you and Orin are influenced in this way but it was you both I was talking with.
I agree with you on the over valuation of perfection. In fact I agree with you figures very largely in my posts.
I really did not start this thread to argue with anyone but rather to explore and discuss.
I am sorry if it has drifted away from that and am more than willing to accept some form of joint responsability.

Daryl!
Interesting point.

"You cannot understand someone you have alienated".

Isn't this the dilemma we are pondering?
The original point is concerned with conflict arising out of cultural clashes.
On a Political level other cultures can be alienated through misrepresentation and manipulation, in turn making it more problematic to connect on a personal or individual level.

Let us put aside the difficulties we have looking into why each other has the point of view we have. There is an old saying: A friend overlooks the broken gate, and admires your garden.

That is what acceptance is about. Here is a different angle, do you understand completely, your very best friend? The answer is no. You simply accept them like they are, without trying to determine what causes them to be that way. To do otherwise would be to alienate them.

Acceptance is not second to understanding, it is often greater than understanding. I will never understand my wife, but I love her and accept her for the individual she is.

The politicos use people's tendancies toward xenophobia, to their advantage. Thinking people, should not only not allow them to succeed, they should do their best to unseat anyone attempting such.

I served in the Gulf War, and I made many friends from various countries while there. Several of the closest ones were from Iraq. Their government was my government's enemy, that did not make them my enemy.

If you can accept people as individuals, where they live and what they hold sacred becomes unimportant. You need not understand why, only understand that they are a good person, and if you are truly lucky, they will call you friend.

P.S. Guest, do you have a name?

IF I GET IT RIGHT:

I am a smart person.
I am a competent person.
I am accepted and respected.
I am likeable and lovable.
I am a skillful person.
I am a powerful person.
I can make money.
I am a success.
I am a winner.
I am better than others.
I can be happy.
I have choices and options.
I am in control.
Others cannot control and dominate me.
I will not be abused, the victim of others' cruelty.
I will not suffer and die.

IF I GET IT WRONG:

I am a stupid person.
I am an incompetent person.
I am unworthy of respect.
No one could like or love me.
I am a klutz.
I am powerless.
I am doomed to poverty.
I am a failure.
I am a loser.
Others are better than me.
I'm doomed to misery.
I have no choice, no options.
I am a victim.
Others will control and dominate me.
I will be abused, the victim of others' cruelty.
I will suffer and die.


The above is a perfect example of a non-sacred model of language. We could call it a "dominate and survive model of language" or simply a "survival language". What is most striking about this model of language is that who I believe myself to be is determined by whether or not I get it right. The other most distinctive feature of a survival language is the utter falseness of the conclusions it is used to arrive at. It's certainly not true that we are either smart or stupid because we do or do not get something right, let alone that we would live or die.

We are given every opportunity to simply have a good time, improvise, play with sounds. But instead we choose to take it as a test of survival. In other words, it's more important to prove our capacity to survive than it is to have a good time. The hidden unconscious language that we base our lives upon, dictates to us that we must get it right or we will be dominated by others, and that threatens our safety, our well being and ultimately our survival. The first sign of a non-sacred, survival language is that it refers to "getting it right" as "smart", as "success" etc. Such a language defines a person by the way he/she performs in a particular circumstance. The person is always at the effect of the language. If I get it right, I'm smart. If I get it wrong, I'm stupid.

The problems and conflicts that occur with a survival language are myriad. To be happy, I must get it right all the time. And my primary motivation for doing so is to prove that I'm not stupid so others won't control me. My motivation for whatever I do becomes essentially a negative one. Since I can't get it right all the time, I either have to have a strategy for getting better than others and than I have been previously -- faster; or I must withdraw from circumstances which could potentially make me look stupid. The problem with "getting better" is that I become programmed to always be getting better, but it's never good enough. Getting better is an endless proposition. This survival model of language has conflict and suffering woven into its very fabric unlike say Sanskrit, a sacred language. It is such that the sounds perfectly express the vibrational essence of that which they describe. In this way, words establish knowledge and understanding directly.

Just thought this may be of some use!
I still think the influence of language is an underestimated factor.

P.S. Gaelic is a relative of Sanskrit.

Dear Daryl and Orin,
I am enjoying our discussion. We have had a few wobbly moments but like a no fault divorce it has not stopped us keeping the relationship going.
The concept of happiness and success is interesting. Western culture seems to value material success and that must colour how we look at societies that are manifestly unsuccessful using that criteria.
Do you think we expect people who we judge to be similar to ourselves to act and feel similarly?
I wonder if that is why the west per se seemed appalled but not suprised by Rwandan massacres but appalled and suprised by events in the former Yugoslavia or WW2 Germany?
i did read about this academic whose name escapes me who postulated that you could not experience a feeling or concept that you did not have the words to describe and evaluate.For example an educated person can appreciate art in ways another could not.
It seems a very dangerous concept.
As regards name I always liked that character Dylan played in Pat Garrett and billy the Kid...
wanders of humming Knock Knock Knockin etc......

To Guest who started this with the question of culture clash,and Daryl & Orin who have 'gone deep' with comments and paradigms...May I add a very personal note of direct experience with culture clash?


Try a weekend with the In-Laws!
Not ever again if I can help it!
That was the most uncomfortable 36hrs. of my life!
No Joke.

That may have been a culture/sub-culture clash.

Well mayhem it is suprising what we put ourselves through.Perhaps your in laws felt the same.
Politeness and family expediency has a lot to answer for!!!!!!!!
I don't think my discussion colleauges have gone deep in any negative sense. Serious issues sometimes need serious discussion.
We could do with more philosophy to interpret reality before the politicians convince us of how they want to change it.

I must admit I'm not much of a movie, buff, so I'll need a bit more prompting for a name. Very intriguing point about the inability to experience that which you cannot describe. I'm not sure I'd concur with it, but none the less it is intriguing.

Alias?

I prefer Alien ...The Directors Cut of course.....sorry!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the discussion....like you Daryl I am against the concept about feelings one can experience being dependant on possession of language to conceptualise them. Seems to be a free ride for racists and other elitists there alright.
Have you heard of the IQ tests ( I think in America) where African american children scored low on standard tests but much higher when the language of the questions was changed to reflect their own. Not dumbing down but more accurate packaging .
Concepts I find difficult in other cultures include non secular states, chauvinistic societies, cultures that abuse child labour.
One might say that these things could be explained by political and\or personal value systms and we do some of these things in western countries. However I revert to an earlier comment that in some socities certain people are almost invisible. These (to me abhorrent practises) are seen as norms. Just what can one accept if another person says it is cultural and should be respected?

Well Guest and Gents, back again. Guest, in your comment of 10 Feb said that perhaps the in-laws felt the same. If their facial sets and tones of word said any thing...it was near total disaproval. The didn't want to like me. Let's stress the want part. Also, I don't recall the others introducing anything neg. I believe I was the one who did that. ;)
I would have to disagree somewhat, with your need to define reality, however. Reality simply is. a physical fact inescapable. Don't believe? Try running through a tree. Yes I know, I'm missing the point somewhat. But it is exactly the point that needs to be made when talking about what other people tell us what we need to believe.

They're giving us opinion and want us to accept.
I see reality as the tree,word as the illusion that one wants to spread. They spew great volumes in the effort to steer us away from what WE want.
Smoke and mirrors.
IQ tests are another illusion 'they' want to accept. Here at last is a subject I can give chapter and verse for you! From in side and out I have subjected and been subject to.
You are correct about the liguistic values mark of the test. Did you also know that kindergarten children of the 'inner-city' upon first introduction to crayons tried to eat them? The testors couldn't understand why. were they stupid? were they hungry? How could they fail to know what crayons are? Too many (all?) of these kids(5&6yrs.) had never seen crayons before the test and the testors hadn't a clue! Want more?

As for your last question. I will accept anything you say is a part of your culture. I will even be more than happy to explore this aspect and even the whole culture. Respect it? Why? I will be the first to say you're free to do or believe what ever you want; No where, does it say in the programme that I have to respect it!
On the flip side of all this, I will also respect YOU enough not to tell you what I think of your foolish behavior. Unless it can get you lynched in 'polite' society, then you can be sure I will try to explain why you mustn't do that there! ;D

Read this article for a good case of cultural clashes:
http://in.news.yahoo.com/020214/64/1gfgy.html

BTW Happy Valentines Day Everyone!

beautiful! I really liked the end comment about the porno type movies.
It is a real shame that the Indians can't take Valentines like the Japanese take Christmas. They should take it all in fun! After all we don't take the Valentines seriously!

Dear Mayhem a lot of eastern thought such as in Buddhism and Hinduism stresses that much we consider fact is an illusion and that the material world is the poor relative to the spiritual world. I do not doubt the tree exists but I am unsure how far that takes us.
Whilst not agreeing with the violence of the Indian extremists in the article pointed to by Daryl I can understand various people feeling their culture being under threat from what seem to us innocous things such as Valentines cards.
This could be because western culture is at the moment dominant and growing as a form of world culture. We have all seen people yelling at foreigners because they do not peak English!!!!
I am interested in your views on tolerance and acceptance.I confess that I have not got it worked out and hope via this board to learn how others see it and hopefully come to a view.

Is it not that people/cultures that exist in a state of deprivation, need religion to validate a denial of the importance and value of unattainable material wealth?
And Ironically, materially motivated cultures use this model to reassure themselves that the accumulation of wealth is a divine reward.

Is one an under achiever and the other greedy?

Does anyone remember the 'Cymru Liberation Front’?
They used to run around Wales burning English holiday homes in the late 80's early 90's.
I must admit I had a touch of admiration for them, as did the Welsh politicians.
I remember writing a letter to 'The White Witch' reminding her that if they hadn't requisitioned all the water in Wales and piped it into England’s empty reservoirs, they may have had something other than wet dish cloths to fight the fires with.

But how then Orin would you explain the Buddha himself who gave up unimaginable wealth to go in search of spiritual enlightnment?
Also in modern Hindu culture it is a widespread practise to renounce job, wealth and all possessions and take to the road as a beggar again in search of spiritual achievements having shown that you can make it ,as it were, in the material world.
On the other hand I take your point...wasn't it Mao who derided western missionaries as promising jam in the sky when you die!!!!

Hello again guest person!

You got me, but!

I think that religion has an uncanny knack of adapting, or being manipulated to accommodate the insecurities of its supply chain.
In underprivileged areas, poor people are an abundant source of recruits, so, if it’s good enough for Buddah...

Is this just being too cynical?

There seems to be a worryingly large number of religions extolling the virtues of misery though.

Maybe we are getting into the 'Opium of the masses' debate and I probably should be tackling the issue of culture in a broader sense.

"Think culture Orin.
Culture damn you"

I think I shall name our estemed guest abhcóide na diabhal. It seems to suit our guest's style quite well. *grin*

something the devil...can't find abhcoide is it merry or advocate perhaps?

,
Dear chat companions,
Talk about culture shock whilst waiting for a plane I am using one of those phone web surfer machines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Scary how easy it is to get into all this space age technology!!!!!!!!!!! It just shows you how seductive it all is............ your slightly self conscious but intrigued guest!!!!!!!!!1

Phone web surfer machine?
While the rest of us have to make do with our television screen typwriter sort of machines.

I wouldn't recommend using it on the plane though,
you may get more than a culture shock.

"Guest, you are surrounded.
Raise both your hands in the air and move away from the phone web surfer machine.
Now"!!!

Advocate, would be correct, as in devil's advocate. I might be wrong, but it does seem somewhat fitting. *Wild Eyed Smirk*

Devil's Advocate is a game I grew up playing! I kind'a like that thought Daryl!
So guest-You want to know my views...The last Paragraph of my 14 Fed 0450 offering pretty much sez it all. There are addditions and frosting I could add to it but the basics are there.
You mention western culture being perceived as all pervasive-with a strong hint that U.S. is the believed carrier of same. I don't know about that. America doesn't actually have a culture of it's very own. We after all a polyglot of the ideas of just about every nation that contributed people to our nation. And being a nation gaurenteed-by law- the right to do and think what we want, our culture is the same blend of our peoples.
And if they/you mean Western civilisation....Didn't Ghandi himself say"It would be nice"?
Now Sidartha may well have given up great wealth to become the Buddah, but he's is the rare one of the cosmos. And many of the Hindi may be giving up jobs etc. to follow His path...But none of the Hindu I know have done so. In fact to a one they all have their own business' or work 2 or more jobs.
Now all that I've just said may be of no more worth than a feather in the jet wash, What ever culture I was raised in obviously didn't make enough of an impression on my youthful spirits, cuz I couldn't give and accurate description of what it was despite 2 semesters of Sociology and Anthro. In fact a good part of my mid-term paper was on the process of Aculturation. The Proffesor thought it was an excellent study. Wanted to meet the subject even. Never had the heart to tell her it was me.
My beliefs and morals now, that's a different thing. I very strongly believe that life is to be spent in the pursuit of Joy. If you get the greatest Joy out of robbing banks... By all means knock yourself out. My joy comes from music, Learning, and good friends.
{and sleep. sleep is a good thing. sleep is dark and warm and cozy. I believe that the world would be more fun if more people would get lot's and lot's of sleep!} =D

and if your greatest joy is murder or rape or theft, by all means indulge your bliss, right? *w*

If that is how you must find joy then,Yes. That is what you must do. However one must also recall that most(all?)nations have pretty specific laws against those particular pastimes, so proceed with caution. And let us not forget the-unfortunatly diminishing- number of folks who will protest most vigorously if you try to practice your particular joy on Them!
--note--
I don't murder some pretty deserving people; not cause it's against the law; but because I detest an institutional diet. I am smart enough to do it and Very likely get away with it. I've been around cops enough that I even can seriously clean up the murder scene and therefore deny them many vital clues. However! I also know that the police are much abler than I am in solving the case. There is a very good chance that I will be found out. It is not the law against such deeds that keep me from doing it, it's the lack of freedoms it will earn me if caught that stop me.
In any case the ones I most want dead are not worth the cost. My own mother has finally decided I'm amoral. Here I've always thought it was pragmatism!*g* -Aside done-

But still we are trying to understand other cutures. I don't know if it is possible to TRUELY understand a 'foriegn' culture, but I do know that you can learn them enough to decide if that culture is right for you. I have always admired the Asian cultures for the one thing they all seem to have in common. They all seem to 'worship' education. The other things that any of them have that's different from how I was raised are what makes them exciting. And so in my gallumphing way I continue to try to understand.

Even if I never get any further in any of my various studies; I will most certainly enjoyed the ride, and hope to have enriched and been enriched!
Isn't that the most important part? Learn and grow together?

Pursuit of joy!!!!!!
At who's expense?

I’m not an American, but is the Constitution so vague
as to be vulnerable to an interpretation such as this?

This is a 'cherry picking' harvest on a monumental scale.

It may be every American citizens right to own an aircraft carrier if they wish.
But! do you really think people would be justified in having a sulk,
if denied the liberty to carpet bomb the local school.

*Shakes head, puts envelope to head and predicts* I sense a judgement of Americans in the near future...Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...doesn't mean you get to be happy, only to pursue it inside of the confines of the law. Hmmmm, carpet bomb the local school? I once threw eggs at it...

Were they scrambled?

If not before, they probably were so after that. I agree with the guest on that point. We have the right to pursue happiness. But there is an old saying, "One man's rights end where the next man's begins." But I think the discussion is getting a bit to political. There was a movement in the Schools a few years ago, called multi-culturalism. If I recall correctly, the children were not going to be indoctrinated in American Culture, but rather that of their countries of origin. It did not seem to go over very well, and I do not know of any schools still practicing it.

I think learning about the cultures of others is exciting, and I regret that most of the world think if they go to a Chinese or Mexican restraunt, that they have explored a foreign culture.

To learn about a culture, it is necessary to accept it. To understand a culture it is necessary to learn about it. To live in a culture it is merely necessary to accept it.

I still hold that all culture begins at the individual level, and expands from there.

They were once they hit the windows and walls *LOL*

dear friends,
not to be pedantic but my last message was at airport so the current guest is not me.

*Gets out dictionary and looks up the word "pedantic"*

Not meaning to be belabor the point, but this adds to the necessity for giving a name to yourself. Even if you are a regular in hiding, create a new identity, so that we may be certain that you are you.

Orin, Yes the Constitution IS that vague, many generalalities and no firm statements. The Right to sulk? That isn't a right per se---more of basic human nature.
Various guests and Mighty McGuire. Levity is appreciated! It keeps us from hair pulling and name calling! *G*
Daryl sweets, you are SO right-I think- about the indvidual level of cultures. But I think there's a trap here. It occurs to me that the only way an outsider can understand an alien culture is intellectually.
We are soaked in our cultures from the day we're born. We are so deep into what IS that until prodded it doesen't occur that not everyone is like us. The emotional level is programmed in the wet wear. So we have to THINK about what isn't us. The emotional levels of an alien culture may well be beyond the outsider--forever.

well daryl I have taken your advice and adopted a name................ spins around.... do you think it suits me?

I think it is simply marvelous, Guessed. It suits you very well.

I like mayhems ananalogy that we soak up OUR culture almost like mothers milk and assume many things about ourselves and others as a consequence.
So perhaps it is not easy to understand other cultures given all the barriers but we would perhaps all agree it is worth the effort and given what is happenning in our world today in many countries perhaps it is not too strong to say that it is vital for us to do so.

Not only that, we should strive to instill in our children the realization that everyone is unique, and it is okay for them to have a difference of opinion than you.

There was a time in childhood before we understood the concept of countries, and governments, that we just viewed our existence as a connected existence with everyone else. That was our own personal Garden of Eden. Incomplete knowledge was the snake in that garden.

As we learned about countries, and governments, we accepted them as being good (which hopefully they are, but that is for another conversation) and since they were good, we began to accept that those who they said were bad, must be bad (After all would a good government lie to its people? ~struggling to keep a straight face~)

It is vital that when we teach our children about governments and countries, that we make certain that they understand that they are made up of people who also have the right to their own ideas, and who might be wrong too. In so doing, we will make their knowledge more complete, and help their Garden of Eden, to have fewer snakes in it.

Is it too late for grown adults to learn these principles? No, but for the children there is a chance to make these ideas part of them, at a core level. After all, if they are going to have ideals stick from childhood, would not acceptance and tolerance be best?

How do we do that for them? We must demonstrate it to them in how we act and react to others. When we fail to act properly, we should explain to them that we were wrong and apologize for our errors. There is no better way to teach a child to not blindly follow a leader than to make certain they know as children, that their parents are not infallible.

Well Guessed... You blew me out of the water with your selfname.
I was going to suggest Reed. For many reasons, some of which Daryl would perhaps agree with, and all of us can smile with!
I like your arguements!

This is a bit like the gaelic nickname and I have to guess.............
Reed:
* blowing in the wind ergo of no firm opinions
* Jerry Reed the singer...no idea
* Donna Reed actress... no idea
* Oliver Reed actor and drunk... no idea
No I give up...is it a cultural nuance perhaps of american origin and therefore beyond my understanding....... that would be very appropriate......lol.....

(PS I have a penchant for missing the blindingly obvious)

Could someone please tell me?
Exactly which conflicts resulting from culture clashes are they referring to.

I am unaware of any.

Gulf war, Rwanda, Bosnia, Macedonia, Sept 11th, Middle East, Northern Ireland, they’re all politically motivated.

By the way, some principled and tolerant children grow up, join the army and kill other principled and tolerant people.

Armies are a bit inflexible that way, don't you think.

As maybe Orin, but are not a nations politics a decision of the culture?
And from your comments, I can judge that you've had almost no contact with military personnel.

Guessed + & - on your response!
Reed the shaft of the primitive arrow, straight and true naturally.
The true reed of the Soothsayer.
And the pun on the name-sound. We have to read your remarks to reply!
By the bye, I have to say this is one of the most interesting conversation I've had in weeks. Thank you!

I agree then!
We've just had a few hundred years of British barbarism. Must be a cultural quirk.

And being from Derry/Londonderry I can honestly say that the last few decades of their cultural input have been eventful.

As for no contact with the military!!!
Well, they do like to keep us at least a rifles length away, so that's probably true also.

There certainly seems to be a cultural element as to how we define politics.I am going to be a personal interest bore for a few seconds now.
From when I was a youngster my interest in history has been intense and generally of the Ancient variety. The war betwen Athens and Sparta was of particular attraction. Two competing ideologies and all that. One pushing democracy and the other oligarchy.
But culturally almost idenentical so that would seem to lean to Orin,s view. Later US foreign policy versus what was then British imperialism but again from similar cultures? But then it seems to me that Athens was not a true democracy as we would see it and treated its allies as vassals eventually. US 19th century expansionism could be seen as imperialism in a way.
Finally does anyone know how to rescue a person from a self inflicted corner that they have boxed themselves in? I have definitely lost my thread...suggestions welcomed.......

Orin,

The only reason Armies are even needed is because Armies exist. I served in the American Army numerous years, and was involved in the Gulf War, so I do agree with your point that once you join the Army, you give up your freedom of choice. You can join as a Consciencious Objector, and you will never have to point a gun at or kill anybody.

There is always a way, if you look for it. That we do not see those ways until we look back is directly related to our upbringing. I think that the political/territorial wars are examples of a government trying desperately to hold onto the illusion of power that was never rightfully theirs to begin with. The Cultural/Religious aspects of the conflict, are used by the one who wants to retain control.

They attempt to encite zenophobic sentiments in the populous. If they are successful, the mob mentality takes over, and they can point to the mobs to show cause for their operations and their presence.

The only true way to defeat such a ploy, is to stop playing their game. Teach the children not to be reactionaries. In a game of Chess, one side may make an obvious ploy, that a quick strike can turn back, but in taking that bait, the other side might cause themselves to lose a far more valuable piece and possibly the entire game. If you think that these things are not played like a game, by the Governments, you are mistaken.

We can only do one thing to move toward a more Utopian Society, Teach the Children! We can not hope to solve all of the problems of the world, in one generation, but we can make certain that our personal short comings, are not passed to the next generation, and that they make the same pact with the one after them.

On the dream section of the board, I posted about a dream I had where I was turning soil to plant a crop. The soil was loaded with diamonds. I carefully took all of the diamonds out of the soil and placed them on the roadside for people to take as they pleased. The crop I was growing was more valuable than the diamonds, but some might not have seen it that way, and would have destroyed the crop to get the diamonds.

I have come to understand the meaning of that dream. It is simply that the rewards are far greater in helping our children and each other to grow in wisdom, and kindness, than to collect all of the material things we are able to collect.

The Dogs of War don't negotiate
The Dogs of War don't capitulate...
It's all a game

Guessed my friend, I can help you only by pointig out That you fell into the similar but different folly. Oligarchy if I recall is a religeous dictatorship. Democracy is the dictatorship of the masses. The first is a small group the other is unfortunatly large.
Another folly here is mistaking culture for society. The 2 are different. They can and frequently do encompass each other but again we are going the similar but different route here.
If you want I can get my old cultural Anthro text and give definitions that the 'experts' use for the various groupings of mankind!
A final point if I my...War in general comes down to greed. Political or social doesn't matter. Even in the American so called war on terrorism, greed is likley the ultimate motivator.

Greed or the throwing off of tyranny!
If the bully comes over and beats you senseless one day and your friend the next and another friend the day after that and so on, and eventually, you all band together and stand against her, where is the greed? Or would that then be the bully's need (a form of greed?) for power that caused you to make war upon her? Banding together for the common good, you might say. You take great liberties talking about war and soldiering and I doubt you have ever been involved in real war. If that were the case, you would realize that the soldier has or feels little choice in where the general, sitting many miles from the bloodshed, orders him to go. Who is greedy in the so called American war on terrorism? I've met few that have had to kill other human beings that can say at the end that they really thought that war and killing is a wonderful thing. Just lay down in a mosquito infested rice patty, just hoping you'll make it through the end of the day without taking a round from enemy fire, or perhaps even from somebody's weapon that is on your side, and then take this cavalier attitude that you seem to have. You seem to speak from the voice of inexperience. Is it greedy to try to put a stop to a group that has been preying on Americans for over thirty years? I wonder how many of your family members died in New York on September 11? I think you need to hide those anthro books, because it takes a lot more than having taken a few classes with professors X,Y and Z to have even a clue about what you obviously know not much. At any rate, just wanted to have my say and I'm sorry if this offends you, but that is the way I feel.

Daryl I'm not arguing with you.
In fact I can agree with everything you say in principle.

My first rant of a posting makes it clear who I think is resposible for all the misery. I have no issue with acknowledging that people are manipulated.
The ones destroying your crop are the representatives making all the decisions on your behalf. Even they are manipulated by global corporations, the real decision makers.

We can empathise with and understand another culture till we are blue in the face.
Collectively they will still tell us all to "F$£K OFF", if they feel they are being exploited by another nation.

How can you possibly make people wake up to the fact?
The best medium, I think, is the one we're using.

I think we may get a lot more war weary casualties posting messages out of sheer frustration. Questioning what they have done and why exactly they had to do it in the first place.

Foreign policy, what a lovely concept.
Pity its only use seems to be stitching up another country.

Guest-- I do seem to have pushed a button. I'm sorry if it disturbed you. May I expand on a point you seem to have missed?
America; the whole world in fact;as a whole is not wrong to 'band together' to fight an enemy. And yes, the common soldier has precious little choice about where the Generals send him. But the root-the begginings if you will- of war is greed. The response to the greed is what causes the war to sit in our laps. You spoke of the bully, but then shifted focus to the response. It Is The BULLIES greed that started the war. When the people banded together is how it came to sit in their laps.
My experience or lack there of with war is not germaine to the arguement. How many family or friends I lost on 9-11 is of course no business of anyone but me. My grief for the dead is not for public consumption.
I was given no choice on how to respond to the actions of SOBs who want to destroy my nation. The duly elected officials decided that. But the fact remains as long as the press tells the public what a wonderful job Bush and his buddies are doing, he will more than likely be re-elected. Yet another form of greed. Paper and film people get higher ratings and a man with the intellectual abilities of a blueberry scone gets to play power games just a little longer.

And finally, the Anthro books where mentioned in the context of the difference between society and culture. I guess you missed that part of my sending.

How the Irish became white!
Bayjaysus!

http://www.afn.org/~dks/race/./wald-ignatiev.html

Let me pose a couple of questions Mayhem. How should the U.S. have responded to the events of 9/11/01? Who was the bully in this above mentioned event? Or are you of the school that believes that the U.S. caused this event to occur in the first place by its failure to do the right thing in the middle east? If that's the case, then did the genious of Bill Clinton exceed that of a blueberry scone? Just curious. If that too is not for public consumption, so be it.

Okay Guest! Some very good questions! Your secondary questions lack a bit of depth however,:)
Whi was the Bully? I would have to say Osama and his boys. For the most part cause he/they couldn't meet 'face to face' like men. Bear with me please. But that last is the prevailing opinion and there is some truth there.

The responsibility for the attack is on our own shoulders. That's the way Karma works. For more than 15 yrs we helped the Afgans fight USSR. And when the 'bad guy' left we gave them less attention than we gave Japan 50 years before.
We helped our enemies rebuild but didn't do as much for our allies. As Orin said earlier..."foriegn policy, what a lovely concept"
Later during the Iran/Contra hearings (remember those?) Ollie North explained very patiently to his inquisitors why a fellow named Osama bin Laden terrified him. They just shruged it all of as a last ditch face saving attempt. Does that help clarify just how long the US has been setting itself up for just this kind of disaster?
Now if I was the type to assign blame I would blame Osama and the Al Queda. After all they are the ones who threw the 'first punch'.

As for how I would have responded if I had beem allowed to 'wave the baton'? I would have asked for a covert op for the express purpouse of causing binLaden and his backers 6' under!
Very shortly after 9-11 we had reliable information on where to find them. It seemed the way to avoid much of the collateral damage that happens in war.
I object to war in a general sort of way. However I am pragmatic enough to accept that war is sometimes the only answer available to us. As is written the buddist manifesto, Seek always to do no harm.
As for the supposed genious of Bill
Clinton...PULEASE!!!! Add a mug of cola and that's the brain power of WJC.
My politics are open forum. It's the emotional envo;vement that's private. S'Okay?

Now as I recall this was supposed to be a forum on whether or not we can understand other cultures.
I continue to hold to the idea that we can only understand intellectually, that emotionally there will always be some point that sticks.

And your comment about George Bush having the intelligence of a blueberry scone was deep? I would suggest to you that there is more there than meets the eye. I'm not a huge Bush supporter, but he does have a master's degree from Yale and I doubt seriously if they are selling those however, I could be mistaken. Where did you say you received your degree?
I would also point out to you in your premise about a covert op on Osama and his boys, that taking him out would solve nothing. The problem is fundamentally much deeper than that. It is, as you have said, a huge cultural difference which may never be solved. The very freedom you enjoy, flaunt and maybe even trample on a bit is the very thing that causes the problems between the west and the radical element in the Arab world.
I too object to war, but again, the freedoms you enjoy are a direct result of the group having the guts to take it and maintain it.

Culture is a blindfold

.....so it would seem!

Well guest, It seems there's no pleasing you. I never claimed that my comment on Bush was at all deep, just accurate. And if you don't believe that Yale or any other unversity would sell a degree, I fear you truely are mistaken. Also, I didn't state where, what or even if My degree is anything important.
And no, taking out Osama and the boys won't cure the problem. but it will make sure that they won't attack us again. Yes, yes, I know, there is always someone else who can or will step into the gap, But at least Osama and his friend won't be able to kill our people again.
If the atacks had been aimed soley at military targets I wouldn't have near as much outrage as I do. The militery at least knows that it will possibly meet it's end violently. He accepts this as the price of service to his ideals and country, the so called man on the street doesn't have that, and so painting targets on them offends me.
As for the rest of what you said...I recognised all of that long ago. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree. Or even disagree. It simply means that I have to accept that it exists!

Orin friend...Culture may well be a blind fold...Unfortunatly,So is Dogmatisim.
*with a bit of a smile and a shrug* Later people!

Floats like a buttefly, stings like a bee

So perhaps from what Mayhem is saying it would appear that we can only even (when willing) get so far in understanding other cultures.
It occurs to me that it is probably dangerous to think we do understand something on a deeper level than we actually can?
We are then basing our actions on a false premis
and w know what paves the road to hell!
Ummmm guest fancy getting a handle as people might be mixing us up...... exits chortling the laugh of the cheeky!!!!!!!!

How bout now?
You got a lotta noive Guessed

You seem almost aghast to me....lol

Or Gormanghast.......

Yeah Guessed, you got a finger on it now! First we have to realise there are 'other' ways out there. Next we must decide what/if we want to do about it. So we investigate. For what ever reason.
But no matter how we fancy this 'other' There will come a point that we just don't get. Because we/they/us/them get programmed so young-before we actually have words even- there will always be something that just won't parse.
Example? I have great admiration for the Japanese.
The more I study the more facinating they become to me. It's like a Zen riddle, the more you think- the more you see. Understand them? About as much as that Zen riddle.

As for the cause of the cheeky laughter...Not Gormanghast--I think it's more like Gassed! ;)
Hows that for a nice American idiom?!

oops not totally up on american idioms...........
could be :
* its a gas....hippy idiom
* now youre cookin with gas....origin unknown
* gassed as in methane release...... unlikely
* gassed....ummm colloquialism for too much drink taken?

OK I give in.........

Explain that one Mayhem...

perhaps one of these definitions will be closer to her meaning:
Slang. Idle or boastful talk.
Slang. Someone or something exceptionally exciting or entertaining: The party was a gas.

I suspect the former rather than the latter in this circumstance, though I could be wrong.

Mayhem, its better to keep'em guessing! (More fun at any rate.)

Thanks Daryl did not think of those....
well only mayhem knows so we must wait.....
they also serve who only stand and wait ( hope that is right quote?)

It has been interesting to see the way that we all have ideas ranging across culture society and the political establishment
You know the old quote from Gandhi when asked what he thought about western civilisation :
" It could be a good idea" to paraphrase.
We all assume as Mayhem says we absorb values at our mothers knee.
I just am feeling that we in the west assume a lot more and usually in our favour?
I have slipped into my asbestos underwear and await your response.
In passing Orin I was in your neck of the woods recently ,Belfast, Omagh, Enniskillen and Strabane
Had a great time!!!!!!!!!!!!

The sterotypical westerner, assumes that her or his way of life is the best way. After all one might think, why else would blue jeans have sold on the black market in Russia years ago for fifty to one hundred dollars a pair back in the eighties, when they cost ten to twenty dollars in the states? We ceased living in harmony with nature, and shunned the natural order, assuming that our needs always out-weigh the needs of all others, plant animal and humans not lucky enough to be born where we were.

How does this happen? How do we get to be this way? One step at a time. It has been said that we are all born liberals, and become conservatives with age. In Germany almost two decades ago, I bumped into an older woman on the streets of Stuttgart. When I apologized as best as I could in German, her face lit up and she told me in that it was the first time in many years that anyone had apologized for having bumped into her. Did people plan to have bad manners, I do not think so, they simply got so tied up in their destination, that they forgot to ensure they had a good journey.

On that note I wish each of you a Good Journey, and hope that you will remeber to help those around you to have one too.

Well Daryl I hope that was not a leaving speeech as i have enjoyed our chats!!!!!!!!!!!

Certainly not, just a reminder that once we drop the idiosyncracies of our cultural/political upbringing, we are really all very similar, and kindness is kindness and is appreciated everywhere. If we want to understand our differences, we should work on building upon our similarities.

We might have different ways of doing things, but we all enjoy kindness, compassion, generosity, friendship, and a host of other things when they are directed towards us. Likewise we all dislike rudeness, curtness, stinginess, hatred, and apathy, and a host of other things when they are directed towards us.

Understanding other people's culture begins with understanding people. Usually, the golden rule works great for this.

The problem is that too often we use a fractured version of this venerable adage, that goes something like, "Do unto others before they can do unto you" or "Do unto others as they have done unto you" The latter is usually the reason given for going to war.

It is easy to spout retaliatory remarks, when somone else will have to back up those words of vengance for you. I imagine that such words, would not be so quickly spoken if they resulted in immediate induction into the armed forces, and sent to the front lines.

At a time of grief, it is all but too difficult to not look for retribution, but cooler heads must prevail. As I said before, the only reason there is a need for Armies, is because Armies exist. If every Army was disbanded, and everyone began treating others the way they wanted to be treated, there would be a true Utopia.

I realize that we can not look for that to happen anytime soon, but I still hold that we should hope for that, and strive for that. I understand, that until that happens, we all must be willing to defend, against those who are unwilling to accept our right to exist as we choose. This is not as paradoxial as it seems. I want Utopia, but I do not live there now.

I will do my part to help move us all there, but I realize that we must make exceptions for our current reality. I simply refuse to accept that our currentreality is either the only one, or the best one. (Although I am certain it is far from the worst.)

I close all of my written and electronic correspondence with others,
"Part in peace, Return in friendship," and that is my personal motto. I hope that we all part in peace, so that we can return in friendship.

*Bows to Daryl*
Well said...

Yes I agree Gast we need some positive ways forward. I hope your approach works Daryl in those you come into contact with.

Can I pose a further question?
We can all take an individual approach to cultural understanding even accepting Mayhems point about our view being filtered from our earliest experiences.
But when you deal in millions and countries does a collective mentality develop and can we as individuals stand outside that herd approach.
Some shared values are possibly indisputably good.
For example in Australia tipping is bad if service providers expect it as a right!!!!!
In Britain health care free at point of delivery is seen as a community standard.
In america charitable giving is recognised in tax law.
But is there or are there shared values that as the numbers grow as to who shares them become a barrier to mutual understanding of cultures?
Just a thought.

okay, in order. Gassed-if I was directing it to someone It was prolly gasbag;) If to the site in general it was gassed up and ready to go. Oh, sorry, there are Brits here...Petroled and ready to go! :D Daryl you should get together with my son. I spent most of Wd listening to a Very similar cant. The dream is indeed beautiful. But. Did you know that the Literal translation of the word Utopia is...No Where-?

Guessed, I don't think you're going to like my answer to your last question.

"My people are superior to yours"(by dint of color).

Please excuse my interuption into your very wonderful discussion....but I couldn't keep silent any longer........
Very much so, Gassed. There is the shared value of the right/rite of circumcism for both men and women that is particular to certain cultures/societies/countries.
Specifically, I speak of female circumcism/mutilation among the women in certain countries in Africa. As a woman from a western culture, from what I've seen of newspaper accounts of such......I certainly wouldn't want that done to me. But, from what I've read (from a western point of view) the women in those countries demand that it is done. And if a female from another country marries into a family prescribing to the rite of circumcism.......she is forced to have the procedure done to her (usually by other female relatives and not by a doctor).
A female is accepted in those cultures/countries depending on if she is circumcised and if not, she (I'm guessing here) is ostracised.
I've heard of American doctors shocked when they have a client who has undergone the procedure and I've read accounts of the women asking for understanding when confronted with the aspect of going to a western medical doctor.
All in all, I see this as a shared value among a large number of people and that perhaps it is a barrier for mutual understanding between cultures.
Personally, I like exploring other cultures trying to understand as much as I can until I have an overload and have to run back to my 'safety zone.'
Some of the things I see shared among cultures/peoples no matter where they are; are basic human needs: shelter, food, clothing. One can always start there to find mutual ground to share/communicate.
Excuse me here, I've gotta tell a story about when I was younger and living in San Diego. I was new to the area and my biggest impression was the infuluence on the city by the neighboring country to the south. I loved it. Everything was done "manana" (sp?) meaning "tomorrow." One of the circulating cultural rumors going around was "When you go to Tiajuana, don't drink the water. You'll get Montezuma's revenge."
Well, I just scoffed at that idea (being young I could do that) and each time I visited Tiajuana, I drank the water, and ate the food with no other thought than how delicious everything was. There's a wonderful little cafe, (after 20 some years, I hope it's still there) that served the best marguritas....they were heavy on the ritas too, just like I like. Anyway, I never got Montezuma's revenge, but then I was young and crazy an that was my shaman against the terrible things of the world....you think? :)))))

i want to jump in here too, with your permission daryl, orin, mayhem, various versions of guesd. remember in the 70's the slogan "what if they gave a war and nobody came?"

Please anyone following this board feel very free to join in and say your piece. My original musing all those weeks ago was asking for peoples views and I have been gratified at the level of interest and have learned a lot.

Hey guest(of the female,woman,lady bent) Hi! good to have another acknowledged XX on this board.
What you said in the first half of your prose I can get behind 1000%.I too, have been horrified by the concept! So much so that I went into yet another in depth study of the Koran looking for ANYthing to suggest that this butchery be done. Try as I might I couldn't find a thing to support it.
I too spent many a summer in Baja while growing up. There are indeed places where it is NOT safe to drink the local H20. Mostly it's homes and wells in the shanty areas. In the resturants one would be fairly safe, as they are very careful of the needs of the touristas! $$$$ don't you know!

As for the rest of your dialogue...Mant years ago,the father of my then best friend once remarked to me that it was amazing the things the under 5 crowd can do/eat and come to no harm thereby. He then stated as a'law of nature' that no amount or kind of dirt can hurt "babies" before they old enough to start school. Years of watching children (mine and others) have caused me to believe him. So I have to say, even tho' you were much older,You were prolly still protected by the 'arrogance' of youth! :D BTW and totally of the subject, did you ever visit the Bufadora while travelling Baja?
Yeah Chani, I remember those days. I'm still hoping to learn the answer!

Just to toss in a point which may not have been touched upon yet...

While it is all well and good to promote tolerance and understanding of other cultures, what do we do, how do we respond, to a religion-dominated culture that considers Westerners and their personal and religious freedoms as inherently evil? How do we deal with those who are still living in the 12th century, who regard us as filthy infidels, deserving only of scorn or worse?

It's difficult to treat people as equals when they see you as lower than dirt. Education and exposure to new ideas may be a start,but how can we "immoral infidels" win the hearts and minds of such a people? Some of the earlier posts seem to suggest that we throw money at them, ala the Marshall Plan. Somehow I think that this would seen as bribery, and rightly so. There must be a change of heart, not merely appeasement.

But how do we instill the values of political and religious freedom in a culture which traditionally values religious and social conformity above the rights of the individual? A society in which simply questioning the status quo can get you beheaded?

Perhaps we haven't the right to insist our Western values of freedom should be adopted by these cultures. Granted. But do we not reciprocally have the right to expect at least modicum of tolerance from these "true believers"?

*ponders* "Arrogance of youth" why, Mayhem, I'm still arrogant....I thought it was something inherent in my culture for both young and old, men and women :-) Sorry, I never made it to the Bufadora.....can you tell me about it?
!!!!! Celt....I'm wondering if we are seeing changes in the religion-dominated cultures you speak of. Change isn't something that happens over night as so many lofty people have told me. Even in our own culture, changes come slow and sometimes take generations to occur. There are still pockets of religious people in the U.S. who believe the computer is of the devil.
I'm also wondering if one isn't abusing the use of the word "religion," "religious," or "God fearing people"....those are some mighty powerful generalizations you are making there in one fell swoop.....
If the generalizations are the case.... how is it that many of the people in those cultures which traditionally value religious and social conformity above the rights of the individual are able to immigrate to the western world and live among the infidels?
I know several families from that area of the world who live in my home town and work and live among us and they haven't once beheaded anyone.
I've read accounts of many women throwing off those "drapes" and dressing more 'western' since the overthrow of that group which traditionally values religious and social conformity above the rights of the individual.
There is a woman doctor who is once again allowed to practice medicine and was appointed into some high position of the country...."Lord of Doctors" or "Physician General" or something. It is leaders like her that would perhaps benefit from western support to see that her agendas are manifested among the people..... decent shelter, food, clothing, medical care and education.
That country has very deep scars from internal and external strife and it will take years to heal.....generations perhaps......
In helping the country leave the 12th century and emerge into the 21st ....one possibility might be to find those leaders in the country who have similar desires and help them achieve their agenda......
I don't mean to sound like I have the answers, because I don't.....I'm way off in "Podunk,USA" and really don't know the specifics of the situation.....and I only have the experiences of my miniscule life to go on.......which I'm quite arrogant about, you see ;-)

Guest! LOL for the arragance!!
For the rest...Bravo! I think you got the right answer. One of them at least. There are probably others but this is the one that I think would be best.
Some times the answer from "podunk" are the ones we need the most. The whole 'salt of the earth' thing don't'cha know.

The Bufadora, is a blow hole. Right on the coast, and when the tide comes in the force and pressure send a great pillar of water up the blow hole and it's just so exciting!

Of course I didn't mean to imply that whole nations are uniform in their beliefs...there are certainly many moderates in those countries that are working for reform and modernization. Sorry for the sweeping generalizations there, guest....I was trying to compress my thoughts into a few paragraphs.*s*

I expect that in these other non western countries there is an equal diffficulty in comprehending western culture. Do they also think that they may have to accept to understand which is a theme in some of the contributions to this board?
Of course there is no such thing as a monolithic western culture.But it is easier for humans to deal with simpler concepts. I am not american and see a distinct american culture not all of which I can comprehend. So it is not just an east west thing.

Who was in Strabane?

The town of my birth and the very place my parents still abide.
The town where the pubs never close.
They live in 'Bowling Green House' in the town centre.
You may have even stayed there.
Why? well would you believe, it's a 'guest' house!

In fact, they could drum up a healthy trade on this site at the moment.
All visitors welcome.

Ta ra

Mayhem, the Bufadora truly must be exciting as you say...a marvelous miricle of nature....to hear the sounds of the ocean spouting majestically accentuated by cries from the gulls....wonderful.....
Speaking of spouting.....I've done my own bit of it and you all have been kind to my intrusion and I think Guessed is quite accurate about comprehending any culture.
Even among one's own culture there is a need for comprehension and understanding....Chicago is a world apart from someone living outside of Santa Fe and forget anyone in Texas, jeeshh, they're another country.
Celt.......I gotcha! CompressingwordscombingmeaningsishardsometimesbutIunderstandwhatyoursaying! ;)
Cheers! Here's to you all and the lovely spirit of conversation!

Well Orin I was in Dixies American Bar and the Farmers something or other till about 4:45 in the morning and the pub was full when we left......
I have been going to Strabane since 1979 so you might say i am a regular there.....

'The Farmers Home'...... where you bang your head in the doorways before you've even had a drink.
You know, it would be so easy to discover your real name now.
I will ask john the barman this weekend, maybe next.
Or I could try Dixies. I don't go there usually, but considering so few females have actually ever set foot in the place, it should make it even easier.

I'll keep it a secret though, promise.
............oooh staggering home early Sunday morning, brill.

Orin, Why were your fingers crossed when you made that promise? BTW I do not think that Guessed actually claimed to be a female. Rather it was simply noted that in Guessed's opinion, you and I displayed, "male cultural approach of aggression in debate." That does tend to indicate our venerable Guessed might be female, but it in no way implies it. Be very careful assuming Gender, it can cause problems.

Orin and others...A brief Non seq.
Your chat about the Strabane made me chuckle and remember a joke my ex told me. i.e. "An Irishman walked out of a bar"

As for the 12th cent. mentality of our 'foes'
patience,prayers(to what ever gods you choose)and keep offering the hand of frienship. I 'spect it's all we can do. Did you know that the former USSR used to be called the Evil Empire? We fought a 'cold' war against them for 50 years. Where is USSR now? Just as communism could not survive in the 'real' world, so must other shallow thinkers eventually fall!
In a word...Progress. We try to treat every one fairly, give a hand at need and we hope that our 'enemy' will realise that we arn't so bad after all! They see us prospering, and can't understand why cuz, they still think in the stone age. They have no progress forward. They are trying to hold back the sweep of the future and resnt us, that we help the future come into being, and the gods don't strike us down. I speak not of just the relegios (extreme) right. I speak of all peoples who hide behind the "but this is how we've always done it" whine. If these folk would just think any check fact they would see that it just ain't so!
Y'see... Guest was right, change doesn't happen all at once,It takes time. The truely sad thing here is that most people don't realise that change is inevetable! No matter how hard we try the world WILL change. The best we can hope for is to cause the least amount of harm with these changes!
And one last remark. Whadda Y'mean computers ARN'T evil. They are too! Just ask 'em! *weg*

Ah - yes St. Patrick’s Day.
Once described as a day like any other, except duller.
All of us who live in the Emerald Isle will, no doubt, have fond memories
of freezing our nads off, watching the parade of Pat the Baker vans and
P&T lorries trundle down the main street, of a two-car provincial town in the rain.
And yet we all insisted on having ice cream after.
I suppose it was the body trying to regulate the temperature by trying
to make your insides as cold as the outside.

Discovering if a pub with a predominantly male bias, may have had a recent female visitor
doesn't necessarily make me ubergruppenfuhrer gender fascist.
Anyway, I didn't start the gender spotting.

Yes! Anonymity is guaranteed, as I really have no
intention whatsoever of uncovering the identity of any message board mystical folk.
Besides, I'm not exactly cloaked in secrecy myself now, am I?

I'll respond to some of the other points when I recover from last week’s depravity.
And its good to see some new faces in this corner of the Tir universe.
Hurrah for everyone

Oh dear! like a slip showing, I've been spotted, my gender is known .... don't shoot!!!!

Take no offense, Orin, I'm just trying to liven things up a bit. Its more fun if your not entirely certain.

....don't miss!!!

OK!

Lively situation in progress!

ok ok we have gast..... we have guest and we have guessed..... we are all seperate honest...at least I am not gast and no longer guest.....
as for gender well now that would be telling....
remember that old elvis song ...hold me gender hold me tight never let me go ..cause my darlin i don't know and I never will!!!!!!!!!!!
Oe something like that............

Making your own decisions is all very well, but
is female circumcision not also carried out on babies or young children.
I know of some African countries where the parents make the decision.
They hold down the screaming child, whilst someone sets into them with a scalpel.

I'm all for staying in bed, and missing out on a big war someone else has organised on our behalf.
Or even better, everyone gets up early and arrives on the battlefield, armed with nothing more dangerous than a balloon on a stick.
Combat would involve rubbing the balloons on your jumper, in order to make your opponents hair stick up from the static.

lol orin, guessed, you may not know who you are but you definately belong here. hold me gender?

Going right back to the beginning of this talk does anyone else feel that we seem to get politicians nowdays who you would not want meet and who have not a philisophical bone in their body?
I would love to have a dinner party and invite Thomas Jefferson, Gandhi, Churchill, and Nelson Mandela. I would not like to have one and invite George Bush, Tony Blair, etc etc etc
In short we are ruled by people who seem to want to govern and change the world without first trying to understand it!!!!!!!!!!!
Perhaps this is just me being naieve I would appreciate others views on this.......

agree w guessed, we're not being represented

And female politicians.........would any get an invite, and if so, who?

Guessed -- Naif? perhaps
Chani -- Not being represented? Don't bet on it.
Orin -- Female polititians? Bella Abzug, QE1, Queen Vic, Grania. Ok the last was a pirate, but aren't modern polititians also? *weg*.

Guessed, first point here is all 'they' need to know is that they don't like how it is, whatever the particular IT maybe. I think everyone is guilty of that particular 'crime' at least once in our lives. Honestly now; Have you never said or even thought "it's just not fair" ? I know I have, and I hear the kids scream it constantly!

Chani, dear are you in the good ol' US of A? then you live in a representative democracy. Here at least we vote our losers into office and they spend the rest of their carrers fighting like mad to avoid having to work for a living again! If the people in office are poor representitives we have only ourselves to blame. How many people REALLY pay attention to the political arena? How many people vote for competence rather than the party? and finally how many people actually studie the bills and measures that come up for the vote? I try to do those things. I have not met to many folks who do. It's sad but true... We have the government we deserve.

Orin, m'lad. Do I need to explain any of my choice for the female dinner party? Lemme know and I'll give you my slant! Thank you one and all!
brought to you by Mayhem, cleverly disguised as Guest!

This is a poem written about one female I would want invited. My personal favorite in the political arena, I mourned her passing.

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~pm9k/gifs/ZoForth/Pholan/rwfballad.html

My question is, "Does anyone or government have a better offer?" (Different guest here) It's great to complain about the status quo, grumble that things could be better, but where is the guidebook that tells us how to change things? The 'front lines' are many issues and legislation affecting an entire nation. A man with an idea can cry out; but he is one of many, and must persevere against lobbiests, attorneys, politicians, traditions, and pure unadultrated ignorance. Each group asking him (the man) how will your idea affect me? What's in it for me?

In another vein of thought, mankind needs rules and regulations to live by...that seems to be our nature as proven throughout time and history. But I agree with many of you in that I don't want government telling me what's good for me and what's not and making laws to that effect.

As some of the previous thinkers, shakers and formulators mentioned....(put in different words of course).
I as an individual want to choose my freedoms and not a government.

Yes, I agree, in order to get along with the neighbors, we need to agree to some basic rules....I won't hit your kid, if you don't hit mine.

The bill of rights for example was set down on paper guarranteeing individual freedoms, but since that time.....institutions have come along and found how to make profit from limiting those freedoms.

ohhh, an interesting side question: Was a woman freer in American society in 1776 or 78 when the country had thrown off the constraints of English rule? Than say for instance a woman today in 2002 who has years of compounded rules, regulations, and legislation to regulate her life. You know, I bet a woman in 1776 could carry a gun a lot easier than a woman can today. ;)

I think the nation is too big and out of control, and eventually will collapse from within by civilization breaking down and all of us becoming savages, prefering no law to too much law.

In 1776, in America or almost any European Country, a woman who chose to follow the old ways would have been imprisoned or executed. I think that toting a gun is a thing we should be allowed to do, but it is not, by far, the determiner of the level of freedom in a society.

O My!

You all got off to a good start.
Peace, love, understanding and happiness.

Then you go and break out the arsenal and let yourselves down.
Me with my balloon on a stick would be a more intimidating sight than a load of tooled up liberals.

only liberals carry guns?

*LMAO* Good one Orin...

*LMAO* Good one Orin...

Is there an echo in here?

I do not think guest that :we get the government we deserve and :it was ever thus takes us to far forward.

Perhaps the general disillusionment with politicians rather than politic is behind the plummeting voter turnouts in UK and USA. If it was not compulsory in Australia onwe wonders if it would be the same there.

All froth and no substance seems the order of the day. Blair in particular seemed to have some political views before he got successful in politics and quickly jetisonned any analysis or values that might blur his decision making.

I do not know about Mr Bush...has he changed from some youthful idealism? Perhaps someone from the US who knows his history could tell me.

you mean other than the scandal that elected him or the mess he's making in afghanistan, and telling us it's for a war on terror. no i don't think he's changed. but i do think he's lying.

*Wonders aloud if the scandals involving Big Al and the Clinton administration make Chani feel all warm and fuzzy inside*

Now Now, This is a philosophical dicussion, not a political one. We must try to keep the focus here, and not lose sight of our purpose.

Too right Daryl!
A brief note on the woman of 1778. Dolley Madison wrote to her husband,that when they were writing the would they "keep in mind your ladies." The whole of the letter was warm and supportive and reminding Mr Madison that ladies had thoughts and ideas also. The only real difference I see in the women of today and yesterYear, is that now (at least in the US) it is taken for granted that a woman will have a say in what she will do with her life.
The how much and what for I won't go into as I suspect there are at least as many opinions as women!
The political apathy of the US is pandemic, indeed it is and no one seems to be able to fix it. However I don't see that manitory exersize of the vote would do much in the way of helping the situation. What do we do with those who refuse to comply? An incredibly important question here in the US.
Now Daryl, you are correct this is supposed to be a cultural/philosphic discussion. But really isn't politics both?*g*
If politics is going to continue in the cultural discussion I would like to hear how you other folks decide things. After all Tir is multi-cultural is it not? Once again desgiusing the Mayhem :)

I think Mr Clinton seemed to have some philisophical values in his life early on and seemed quite bright being a Rhodes Scholar and all.
I am not disparaging Mr Bush I do not know what he was like as a young man. Could someone enlighten me please?

As a young man, W seemed to be everyone's favorite party animal. >At last account his daughters were staggering in his foot steps!<
An Indifferent scholar, and a rowdy willing to trade on his fathers achievements.

This is what I've heard and read. Anyone else knows more or different?

AKA Mayhem in the other world-

Pop/Rock stars probably have more influence than politicians or religion over the minds of young people.
No one else has the sort of media saturation they enjoy.
'Beings of all things Benevolent' should make it a priority to adopt a 'celeb' to their cause, before the ad agencies get their hooks into them.

Then again, I could imagine Britney informing us of the benefits to be had from industrialisation of the polar ice caps.

P.S. The Bush puppet would be more convincing if, they made a bigger effort to disguise his strings.
Even on my black and white portable they stick out a mile.

OUCH!! That was a bit harsh there Orin! Not that I will try to deny the charges. How long ago did you first notice these cynical perspectives in yourself?

Anywhat, Your comment on pop/rock stars is especially cogent I think. I just last night read the Time article on Bono and his efforts to help Africa. Pretty intense fellow is Bono.

Thank you one and all for contributions to this board.
I feel it has been a rich vein of discussion that is perhaps now worked out like all mines!!!!!

I have learnt a lot from you all and if you feel tempted to post a new question to get us all going I will be there with bells on !!!!!!!!!!

uh oh!!!! Let my alter ego slip show there......

How do other contributors to this discussion feel?
What! Did you say....?
....Conned into participating in a third rate social anthropology experiment, sideshow'.

And the next question apparently, is eagerly anticipated by a Morris Dancer.....er, I'll give it a miss think.

Well Orin you really got out of the wrong side of bed today!!!!!!!!!!
No one was conned into anything and you seem to be carrying around a load of umbrage in case you need to take some...lol...
I was guest till I was asked to take a name and that is fine on Tir I thought.
As far as I could see we had looked at the original question quite a lot and you can over egg a pudding.
Sorry if having enjoyed it and admitted learning more than I contributed you think it negative to ask if someone else might have a topic that we could look at seems trite to you but I do not think it is.
I enjoyed your thoughts and if you feel conned then I am sorry you feel that way.
Others may well agree with you and you can have the high ground.
I posed a genuine question and felt it had run out of steam and was acknowledging that and was thanking you all as well as asking if others had similar concerns to look at. If that is wrong then so be it.

ok, are ludd and guessed the same person. anyway guessed i think you're taking offense when none was intended. but what do i know.? yes let's push around another topic

This is great. I had never imagined to find such a discussion going on anywhere. I hope that it is not too late to put in my two bits. It took some time to read all this, but what a good read, the side articles were great too. Also interesting was the way you all worked through misunderstandings, to me this is evidence of cultural differences at work while sorting them out is what this string seems to be about.

Orin (I hope that I've quoted the right person), I found this statement interesting: "Is it not that people/cultures that exist in a state of deprivation, need religion to validate a denial of the importance and value of unattainable material wealth?
And Ironically, materially motivated cultures use this model to reassure themselves that the accumulation of wealth is a divine reward." I think it is sadly too true. Religion is too often used in this manner; I find this perplexing.

In more than one persons' comments it was inferred that we become what is around us during childhood. I just wanted to add that I don't believe that my parents made me who I am. I was raised by a bigoted, racist man and I by no means share his attitudes. He may have demonstrated what not to be and in that way made me who I am, but I am not who he conditioned me to be. I think that to a certain extent our experiences and upbringing may make us who we are, but we all have minds and choose who we will be ultimately.

I may have been surounded by a certain culture as a child, but when I began to experience mainstream culture I realized that I could not understand the culture of my peers even though we were raised in the same country. Which brings me to an experience I would like to relate. When I first told my mother about the man I was dating she protested stating that "their culture is different from ours". I responded by pointing out that "culture" (if you will, perhaps personality would be more accurate) varies from family to family due to ethnic origin, religion, and personal taste and experience so it should not matter what culture he belonged to, because there will always be differences to overcome in any kind of relationship regardless of ones ethnicity, religion, skin color, etc. I guess my point is that I don't believe that anyone can completely understand every aspect of even their own culture, let alone a culture which they have not been raised in. I am not saying we shouldn't try I just mean that there are probably as many ideas of culture as their are people. In fact I believe that it is vital to the survival of human kind that we learn to at least accept the right of others to exist if not understand. This planet is too small for intolerance.

Which brings me to a question I would like to add. Or should I start a new string? Or does someone else have a new discussion topic? Well, here are my ponderings: There has been a recent study released which says that Americans feel that America has become too rude. What is happening? Why do we care less for our fellow humanity than we do for the soil and stones under our feet? Is this what happens when we don't try to understand other people/cultures? Check out the article at this URL to see what I'm talking about: http://www.msnbc.com/news/733453.asp

Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone. And if I have may I apologize now. I am by no means a polished conversationalist.

P.S.
Not all Americans prefer jelly ;)

Ludd/Guessed

It was all strictly tongue in cheek, I just didn't understand
the necessity for the extra dimension to the discussion, thats all.
I get all disorientated
And! I know, you were coerced into adopting an identity
I didn't really think you were a closet Morris Dancer and I obviously
enjoyed chipping in my penny's worth to the discussion.

A friend of mine once got talked into going on a blind date, only to find out too late, it was with his Aunt.

Hi again Chiani, and hello to you Heather. No one should be worried
about posting their thoughts here.
Me on the otherhand,
'POST THIS MESSAGE', is usually followed by, "Oh B$%llocks".

Hello everybody.......
..........The topic seems to have been expertly funnelled into a more focused niche, and I can't help feeling it may have already started heading in that direction. Should be good

Well Orin I am perfectly balanced having ,as I do, Chips on both shoulders.....
Heather has posed a new direction and as you say lets go that way........ and as Bogart said in Casablanca ..We'll always have Strabane....

What happened to the person who started this thread? Are they still about? I've lost track of who is here.

Ludd started it.

Or Guest begat Guessed who begat Ludd.
A holy Trinity!

Ludd you explain, my head hurts

Glad to see you have finally rejoined the ranks of the named ones, Ludd.

Welcome to the discussion Heather.

I think that the World in General is becoming more rude. But I have long suspected, that manners run on a eighty to hundred year cycle. We could see great similarities to today's society in that of the 1920's Then by the latter 1940's, we were regaining our manners, and by the fifties they were firmly in place. They lost ground in the 60's and were almost completely erroded by the 80's. Manners made a bit of a comeback in the 90's, but with the events of the world, I believe that we will see a resurgence of manners once more. (Then again I could be off base as usual)

20's-30's The Great Depression.
40's The aftermath of World War 2.
50's Affluence.
60's-70's Disillusioned by the Vietnam War.
80's Greed and self interest.
90's End of the Cold War, victory in Gulf War
00's Take your pick

>What happened to the person who started this thread?

One of the things that I like about the Net is that it enables a situation in which one can't point and say "He started it". It enables the divocing of the thought from the prejudice.

Some of the best Tír threads are / have been timeless. They represent a continuity of ideas rather than a conversation in real time between known individuals.

In my time, I've been sent by employers on very expensive management training courses. The best of these tried to achieve a brainstorming environment in which it becomes near-impossible to associate a person with an idea.
Once the baggage of one's perception of the messenger can be divorced from the meaning of the message, the way is made open for creative development.

SO:
"Can we understand other cultures? "
Probably not, but we can learn to live with them by opening our imaginations.
We can't understand our own cultures :) - but we don't have to live with them (in the sense that by and large we should agitate to change our own cultures before we presume to judge and change others').
If we can't change our own cultures, how can we even begin to understand the issues for activists in other cultures?

Once we get over "Who" (started it), we can begin to think.


Note: I'm not picking on the question or the questioner. I'm just building on the question.

Mea a Culpa Mea culpa ( or as we said at school mea cowboy mea cowboy me a mexican cowboy!!!!!!)
I did it acc

But this thread is very much about confronting and identifying both our own and others prejudices.
And is it not concerned with the association of, specific acts of injustice or intolerance,
with a clearly identified other party.
Surely! only after achieving this objective can people invest their energies into the search for a solution.

Blessings on our inn-keeper!

Has another subject been decided? As I truely enjoy these chat.
Has America become more rude? Yes!
Listen to the children in an average American neighborhood! The language is frightening!
My oldest daughter even yelled at one foul mouthed crowd "Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?"
Yes, we all know those words, but do we really need our children yelling them at the tops of their lungs? And can anyone believe that they will get 'cleaner' with age? These children are all too often talking to their friends in this degrading way, how are thaey talking to strangers or even the people they don't like?
Sorry Daryl. I don't see Americans getting less rude.

I didn't introduce this topic as a criticism of anyone...just out of deep concern for what is happening to modern society. It weighs heavy on my mind. What will happen to America if the society continues to decay in this way. I am suspicious that the fast paced materialistic life that has become the life to be attained is what is destroying the fabric of decent communities. The media (television, gaming industry, movie industry.....) has not helped to slow this phenomenon.

Rudeness is sort-of on-topic under "Understanding other cultures" as it stems from a lack of empathy for others.
It's not just an American thing.

I have revived a message board on the Iraq issue
http://www.serv.pro.ie would like your views

you know you re read these boards and it is like finding an old book on the shelf hidden behind newer volumes but containing so much when you browse thru again
As we stand the edge of a war no one I know supports and wondering what it is all about the original poit of understanding being a preclude to acceptance on some level starts to make sense
What say ye Tir people

Huh!?

Sorry guest seem to have been unclear
I just reread this board
It seemed to be relevant to the world at the moment
A lot of actions but little thought
Anyway just a perdonal view

Today I am going to attend an anti-war demonstration which I started to put together, gave up in despair and then others picked up the torch....and finished. I'm not a pacifist, but something is not right about this war....it seems that there are more immediate threats than iraq....we need to focus on more immediate problems like security within the country... and that doesn't mean trampling civil rights in the process...

the threat of war is the third option.

Being anti weapons of mass destruction, anti dictators, anti torturing regimes does not make me pro war but in Britain that seems to be the only conclusion our major political parties will allow....... I doubt I will ever vote again as there seems little point really..........

Note to human shields, Saddam only pays the families of human bombs.

I think we all know guest that saddam is a nasty piece of work..... however the difference of opinion betwen most people seems to be that some of us think that we have not yet exhausted all other methods of neutralising the threat he poses and therefore do not need to recourse to war now. There are amny dictators out there that we are leaving in place so it is the threat to us not his treatment of his people we are het up about otherwise we would be invading Burma, Zimbabwe, etc etc

Make Love not War!!! We can either choose to live in peace with each other, or we can live with the pieces of shattered lives and dreams that come from the alternatives.

12 more years!

I wonder what would have transpired if all the time devoted to the developement of lethal weapons, had been deprioritised to concentrate on the nurturing of a universal love bomb instead.

Arrive in Iraq and theres Saddam, exhausted poor thing after spending all day baking fairy cakes for the arrival of his well armed visitors, and his wives have funny glints in their eyes to.

Eh! Well

Raven, in the words of Eliza Doolittle "wouldn't it be luvely"!

Man has waged war against Man since the very beginning. If you want to be Biblical about it; since Adam was a Dad. It is human nature (not necessarily our best characteristic) to protect ones own turf, way of life, home. Change does not come easily to us.

Is Saddam a 'bad man'? He sure is (even other Arab Nations call him ‘Monster’. He has proved himself time and again.) Is war against Iraq justified right now? I don't think so. Am I in possession of all the facts? Probably not. Are there more dangerous regimes in the World right now? Damn right there are. Is there a way to stop all this? Not now - Mr. Bush (and followers) is committed to the max and any back down would be political suicide (they loose their job!). Why are Germany and France resisting? Some say due to their experiences of war. Could be, though, because they currently have the oil contracts in Iraq and disruption to those due to war would affect their economy just a tad.

Do I believe in war? I would have to say 'yes'. I wage war on a daily basis with. We all have our own personal wars with our families, friends, and community ever day. That's the Human Nature bit - to protect ‘our property’, ‘our own’ and what we perceive as ‘our rights’. Our ideas are seldom in sync with even those closest to us. Magnify that, add a touch of politics, a sprinkle of cultural ignorance here and there ... and we have a big war. Also, I live in a Nation that is ‘free’ and democratic due to WWII.

Should it have all been finished last time? Absolutely! There is this little pact, though, that stops one Nation ‘knocking off’ the leader of another. General global opinion after the last round with Iraq was that the People could rise to finish the task. They couldn’t, or wouldn’t. I don’t know which. They were probably too tired and too sad and very, very scared.

Am I scared? You better believe it!! Apparently the US packed 75,000 body bags with their troops there now. I don’t know what numbers for our lot or others. I don’t even know if the Iraq has any left.

So, “make love, not war” … “ Go placidly amid the noise and haste ..” “… pray for us, sinners, …” “stand up and be counted” “make your vote count” “educate yourself and your children”. Pick a slogan.

Eat at Joes
Kilroy wuz here
Down with UPS

since you lowered the bar, Dave ...

"Without Fear, without favour
I support my Neighbour"

Well, I second that one Lacie

Spread love Everywhere you go: first of all in your own home. Give love to your children, .... to a next-door neighbor. Mother Teresa

(That might start a war in and of itself!)