Hello all my Tir friends. This is Noela on her soap box. (You know, my grade 6 teacher actually bought one into class for me *s*.) There is no accusation in anything I say here .. it is merely my comments. Just my thought - trying to get them straight.

The terrorist mass murder of the Bali Bombings is horrendous. It is equal in horror to the September 11th massacre in the United States. It aimed at and killed innocent people. Per Capita it killed many times the number of Balinese and more Australians than America lost on 9/11. 11 Brittons died, 3 US citizens died, a German, a New Zealander. People from many countries died, and so many more were badly injured. Everyone there, and everyone who has some contact with someone who was there, is damaged. My family lost friends; friends lost friends and family ... and so it goes on, as we all know. The pain and suffering my family, friends, fellow West Aussies and Aussies are going through now makes me listen. Why can't I listen better when it is people from a different culture?

To be honest, I am disappointed at the lack of reaction of my Tir na nOg companions to this tragedy.

I am more disappointed, though, at our 'total reaction' to terrorism. Sadly, this kind of terrorist action happens daily throughout the world. We hear of the 'suicide bombers' in the Middle East daily. That is terrorism. I know, I listen and then 'flick the channel'. I don't want to hear any more. Do we only react when the people injured are ours? I guess we do. Perhaps it is not a bad thing - perhaps it is a survival thing. I don’t think, however, we can 'wage a war on terrorism' SUCCESSFULLY when we only react to acts of war that effect our own.

In this kind of trauma situation the media of our own country brings us images and information that is centered to our own beliefs and nationality bias. It is, and is played out, as heart tearing individual situations. Each situation needs hearing, but the overall situation is a sum of its parts.

I have Muslim friends. I have Muslim's who live down the street. They are nice people. They are not terrorists.

I was born and raised Catholic. I can look at dreadful crimes committed by patrons of the Catholic Church who THOUGHT they were doing the right thing. They were extremists. I am not proud of them, though they thought they were doing our God's work.

Now, to my point. The only way ANYTHING is ever going to change is if the most powerful Nation on this world, the United States of America, begins to educate their children about ‘the rest of the world’. I have no doubt that America and Mr. Bush (Jnr) hold our world in their hands. I do, however, doubt that the average American is aware of what that power means out side of their own sphere and what it may lead to.

Sometimes in silence there dwells shock, fear, grief, anger.

Sometimes the trauma of a situation causes grief to express itself differently to what may be an expected norm. Not everyone has the same route to accepting and processing the power of their emotions, and even when the same route IS taken, the outcomes are without doubt, different, because of an individual's upbringing, culture, society, dwelling, etc...etc.

For example, my emotions are often expressed within the artworks I produce.

Don't let silence fool you. It can sometimes be louder than the most horrific scream.

I think there is a desperate need to understand other cultures more fully and show tolerance if we are ever going to even attempt to love one another. Where is common sense? That depends on what is 'common' for that culture I guess.

As you say Lacie, the overall situations is the sum of it's parts. Good points made Lacie. I have heard that there are now 3 NZers confirmed dead, and many more still missing.

*puts on "Sound of Silence" Simon & Garfunkle*

Lacie,

As said, there have been and always will be terrorists in the world. Either they be for religion, for hate, or their own secretive agendas. Their goal is to cause world wide anarchy, although they preach some utopia as their ultimate goal. No power exists or could exist to deterr these people. Even a superpower. But alas there are other superpowers in the world.. UK, Russia, China, Japan... France and Germany too. (aka The Permanent members of the UN Security Council)

Educate US about the world? Yes, we have the Peace Corps and other world volunteer organizations. Those volunteers are the real ambassadors, they help people, and learn of other cultures. Also we have immigrants from many nations. And in many USA schools and colleges they are teaching the Qaran as part of their curriculae.

The real problems are too complex and it is too easy to blame someone such as a Superpower for world ills. The real problems relate to their environments. Growing up poor with no hope, no education, where tribal hatred of hundreds of years is the norm.

What is needed are more volunteers. Future generations in the lands of the terrorist groups need to be taught about the outside world. They need to be taught about laws and rules. They need to be taught tolerance and respect of others. Instead there only education is narrow minded. They do not know of the outside world, only what their teachers tell them and their religious books. They live under dictators, and beneath that the hatred taught by their teachers or religious leaders. They can not control their own destinies. Sad, though, and even the issues are much more complicated than I have mentioned or could begin to understand.

How can we teach these poor souls about the real world. How do we show them the cruelties they would endure if they did live in their Islamic Utopia? How can we teach them to help themselves and not put blame on innocent and defenseless peoples? How can we teach them tolerance? How can we teach them self determination?

Nyles

Actually! I disagree.
In fact I would go as far to say that Lacie was right first time, very few do give a damn.

Primarily I think, because the event occurred in a third world backwater, and not Australia or New Zealand.
I expect the Balinese will come to terms with what happened out of sheer necessity; others may have a harder time.
Is there a world hierarchy of human value at play or what?

Anyone from a country with a predominantly violent political landscape will recognise that indifference.
The realisation hits people that they are on their own and no one is coming to save them. There are numerous western governments who use terrorism to keep the peasants in check, and little is said or done about it.

Who would you turn to then? The ones who can fight back.

I agree with you in part, Orin. The 'few give a damn' bit. However, the Balinese, although a third world island, are totally non violent and a very peaceful people. This will devastate their home, which relies TOTALLY on tourism. Even their secondary industry of agriculture is reliant on the restaurant trade generated by tourists. The fact that this even occurred in a 'Third World' country has nothing to do with the act itself. The mass murder was planned to take out holiday makers, not the locals.

When you ask 'who would you turn to then?' - do you mean resistence cells or 'World Power' countries? I am not sure if you were speaking locally or on a global view.

(To shed light on why so many West Aussies and Aussies in general, frequent Bali as a regular playground - it is just off the northern coast of West Australia and it is cheaper for me to fly to Bali with 5 nights accommodation than it is for me to bye a return airfare to the East of Aus.)

I agree that Bali will have to endure the aftermath of the bomb, but sadly! on their own. Their options are limited to say the least. I doubt if they have the resources or inclination anyway to engage in morale boosting reprisals.
For the record, and considering their losses, I don't expect that the people of Australia and New Zealand are interested in reprisals either, and are too busy grieving. They differ from their friends in Bali in that they have an opportunity to make a real difference, and set in motion an alternative agenda to the 'I'm alright Jack' policies of most.

In reference to 'who would you turn to' I was trying to highlight the injustice and intolerence suffered by people that invariable gives legitimacy and support to those who would fight their corner...however dirty. Also, Someone having the courage to put right the wrong doesn't condone or acknowledge the barbarity of terrorism, but it does take away the raison d'être for their existance.

Agreed, Orin. 'Who do you turn to' - we give credence and legitimacy to whoever takes our cause. Even if, as sometimes is the case around this world, their ultimate agenda is not necessarily the same as our own..

So true!

Nyles, it has taken me awhile to respond to you, as I wanted to think about the things you said. I was not blaming the US for the ills of the world. Nor was I attempting to undermine the 'good' the US does with the organisations they fund and muster troops to - just as I would not undermine the same funds and troops from every other Nation .. and other Nations DO participate.

You mention other Superpowers ... there is only one Superpower. The days of the UK and Germany being in that status have gone. Japan's power to help has been so depleted since WWII that they are not even allowed (UN ruling) to bear arms outside of their own country - they COULD not offer help to the 'War on Terrorism' in anyway but administrative support. China has force but now power/power but no force - no global direction. Russia is a no-go.

I guess we could assume, then, the US is the Leader of the 'Western World'. So that makes the United States the main player with the rest of us playing 'bit parts' ... as the worm turns, it is the United States of America who is the 'Big Brother'.. tough for you, true, but as a Nation, that is where you have aspired to be.

So now, more than ever before, the people of your Nation must be given knowledge about the world they are voting in Presidents and Governments to make decisions about. With World POWER comes World RESPONSIBILITY.
I don't thing your media or your Government is giving you all the information you need.

Orin, I believe Bali will survive and continue to be the Island Paradise, once the dust settles.

Surveyed, most Aussies have said they will continue to frequent Bali .. I guess the proof will be in the puddin', as they say.

I do know that Austalians are donating to support the victims of this mass murder. The Red Cross Relief Fund
http://www.redcross.org.au

or the Lord Mayor's relief fund
http://www.appealswa.org.au/index2.html

The Balinese people are supported by both of these funds.

I am hoping to provide a 'half way home' for a Balinese. You see, once the extensive survival surgery, then plastic surgery after burns is complete, the patients must remain close to medical attention. I am looking forward to supporting someone in my home.

I am an in the U.S.A. We have been collecting money at work for the Balinese people since Monday. We collected over $300 Monday and continue to pick up money. We have begun an email campaign to our friends and peers requesting aid. We will continue to solicit funds for this cause.
There is a lot of support here, but there is so much else going on in the country and the world, this event may not have gotten the attention that it deserves, but I think the news is spreading and so will the support.

Those bloody Americans are terrible people. They should teach their children better. They are responsible for all the ills in the world.
The Bali bombing is "equal in horror to the September 11th massacre in the United States. It aimed at and killed innocent people. Per Capita it killed many times the number of Balinese and more Australians than America lost on 9/11."........................... ................................... ............................................................ ..........................................................................................................................
Is there a competition here? Lacie, I agree that the Balinese bombing was horrendous, but is it necessary to hurl stones at the U.S.? Is the U.S. responsible for this bombing? You imply that the people of the U.S. may be ignorant or perhaps they don't know how to select/elect a leader. I'm sure the U.S. citizens would appreciate you helping them solve their problems. Perhaps you could tell the U.S. what they should do, who they should vote for and what world view, (that you are apparently so knowledgable of), they should adopt to be in agreement with your philosophy. I find a bit of your diatribe somewhat devisive and counterproductive, not to mention sanctimonious. On the other hand, some of it is poignant and touching. Keep stirring the pot, it may come to fruition yet!

Up Meath!!

If American children had better educations Bali would not have been bombed?

Guest, that's a bit of an oversimplification, and not quite what Lacie was trying to say.

If I hear Lace right, she's pointing out that this sad, violent world needs change, and as the last (luckily democratic) superpower left standing, the USA is therefore obliged to take the lead in world affairs. And that American citizens, whose votes elect those who will wield this power, are either isolationist or woefully uniformed about events beyond US shores.

Fair enough. As an American myself, I can't argue with any of the above, except to say that it certainly isn't isolationism that ails us. Americans are an intensely curious, imaginative, and outgoing people. Unfortunately, our curiosity is being fed by a ratings-driven commercial news media.

All three US television networks have failed miserably in keeping the US public informed. In a half-hour newscast that is actually 20 minutes plus commercials, the vast majority of stories are national. All non-American news is covered in a "World Brief" which lasts about two and a half minutes. The cable news stations such as CNN are superior to the networks...but not everyone can afford cable, and those who cannot are being cheated by our major media.

BBC World news (a whole hour! imagine that) just recently was picked up on our local PBS station. I was amazed at how in-depth and truly global was their coverage...made ABC's Peter Jennings look like a cheap tabloid hustler!

Lace is right when she says that positive change will be hastened by an accurately-informed American electorate. We just need to turn to outside and alternative sources for news...if ABC, NBC and CBS can't afford to alienate their commercial sponsors by providing us with decent information about the world beyond our borders, then we as citizens of the last superpower have an obligation to seek it elsewhere. An informed voting public is the path to real change.

I.M.H.O.

I think all global citizens should be aware of what is happening in the world but it is really not until it happens on your doorstep that you fully understand the implications.

I think all in Tir are wonderfully caring people who are horrified at any violent act.

We Aussies have been outraged and shocked at such an attack as we in general are a fairly quiet nation full of fun loving people. This attack in another peaceful fun loving place has appalled us and we search for the reasons why.

I take comfort in this place knowing it is a small refuge. Our real legacy..and one Im going try to concentrate on..is our own actions. Well done lacie for putting your words into actions and being a part of a healing. *hugs*

*lays a wreath for all who are suffering in Bali and Beyond*

Today was a National Day of Mourning in Australia for those souls lost in the Bali tragedy. The living victims ... well .. I can't imagine.

I must say, I have 'gone to water' today. A week down the track from the attack, with friends of my son's murdered, with friends of friends ... you KNOW the story. I thought I had escaped to some extent. I thought I had to help those who lost people.. I rang one of my closest friends this morning to wish her a Happy Birthday for tomorrow ... her husband had surprised her last weekend with a trip to Bali for her Birthday. I didn't know.

Lets us unite in the belief that people should be allowed to live without fear. All 'Gods' aside .. it is only us that can make a difference. We must be careful of our own lives, be wise in those you chose to lead our countries and be understanding and compassionate to all.

Personally, I am embarrassed that it has taken me 44 years and the events of Sept 2001 and Oct 2002 to recognise the pain and terrorism the people of other Nations endure.


"Lest we Forget .... Lest we Forget" ....

Well and beautifully said lacie...

I was asked to come and read this message board.. and well have done !... I just shake my head at some comments really !especially Marbeggar's... mind boggling.... I dont think anyone was throwing stones at the US there.. but as an Australian, I kinda feel let down from my US frineds online too *S*...I totally understand that they have their own problems with this 'sniper' ect and have also had to live with terrorism before as have the Irish and Brits...and for that alone I am sorry *S* however, they have to realise this is our FIRST ever personal attack on Australians, and on a whole I think we are devastated !..... I for one, did the unmentionable for me, and went and donated blood when the attack on the Twin Towers occured.. *shrugs*.. nothing else I could do to help!!.. My heart ached for each and every American and I shed many a tear!
I now find the boot on the other foot.. and I dont like it.. not one bit!... I Personally have lost a friend in the Bombing, she was standing right outside the club when the bomb went off.... so you tell me... which 'part' of her are they going go send home hmm????.............and my sons mates were there.. luckily there were only walking to the Club went it went off.. however, they did not escape the aftermath of it all.. and walked upon body parts and bodyless heads lying in the steets..and people screaming with pain and begging for help... their instincts took over, and they started carting these people to hospital etc... for 20 year old kids... well I find that amazing..and they will never mentally recover from that !.....and an aquaintance of mine was there to get married.. his fiance' returned without him.... shakes head !!..."They" attacked our Childrens "Playground"
And Guestie No.1.. you are so wrong about Bali.. they will never survive without tourism.... there are now many injured.. it isnt like they have a government like ours or yours and they can go there and say.. " oi mister, I have no money, can you give me some?"... no money.. NO NOTHING ....I have now realised the full inpact all this has had, and for the initial first few days... it was " ohhh no.. not going to bali".. now... tis different.. we all say.. me included.. yes I will go to Bali.. infact I would like to go and help them rebuild.. but I cant!!!!!
When everyone was trying to get over the shock of losing 'someone' which was the case,....Australians decided we would all go back to Bali for 2 reason.. 1..if we dont, these Balinese people will lose their wonderful way of life.. and 2... cos if we dont go back, these bastards have won !!!!!... and win they will never do !.. No-one will take the freedom out of Australia... yes we mourn as we bury our dead, and care for our injured... but they will NEVER beat us .. we will get over this, unite... and remain " A Free Country"

i agree americans just didn't pay that much attention to the bombing. i was horrified by the oh that's terrible and we feel badly for these people oh well now how can we turn this to our advantage. attitude that i got from the media and from the people living around me. the fact is the americans feel so distanced and removed from the incodent that they have no consept of the devistation this has caused. most ignored the bombing as soon as the president tried to make this into a political statement against americans.

I was both disgusted and horrified by how the american journalists just brushed the whole thing off. i even sent messages to the editorial boards of each station and news paper that i could get a hold of. the only response was. yes it was horrible but thats life. i am still angry and i think that the american press would rather show something that doesn't remind people of two large building going down in flames unless it can premote the presidents plans for war. and a large majority of americans (well the ones i have talked toL) think the whole thing is a political move on the US P's part.

I am a New Zealander and plan never to become an american. i just don't understand the it's all about us mindset.

I'm deeply sorry for the Australians, New Zealanders, Balinese, British and all the others lost in this horrific incident. I'm more sorry for the families & friends burying their dead, those that lived and were maimed. They will spend a long time suffering. I'm disappointed that this board, which was set up to remember those lost and injured, has turned into a political punching bag. I can only say that all of us in the free world should band together in whatever way we know how, whether it be prayer, giving blood, money, a kind word, volunteering our services, whatever it takes, to help those in need. If we let this or any other terrorist act divide us as friends, then we all lose. I would ask everyone here to stop blaming, arguing, flying our national pride, and start joining hands together to do what we can to help put an end to this worldwide insanity. The best way to change the world starts with changing yourself. May God bless us all.

Amen to Mac's comments and holds out her hand....

*Takes Cleo's hand*

"Gladness after sorrow
Sunshine after rain
Harvest after seed time
Comfort after pain
Blossom after pruning
Victory after strife
As the way of Nature
So the way of Life."

Author Unknown.

Very well said Mac!
*Takes hold of cleo's and Mac's hand*

I fear to give my name and I may be banished from Tir, but I must speak out. I don't want to damage the community here; in fact I hold out my hands to all those around me. But I think that this is very important, there are a lot of legitimate points being made here. As a citizen of the USA I think that these points must be made if this planet is to survive. We must speak of these unpleasant things if we are to work together as a world community and live together. We cannot afford to look the other way. We must not be afraid.

The USA is too preoccupied with making wealth (mammon Matthew 6:24) and therefore its latest move to fight terrorism is in my mind only a guise for it's true intentions to secure oil for itself. I am ashamed of our president who was appointed rather than elected; I believe that the majority of Americans voted for his opponent and that he won by some unacknowledged treachery in the elections. His policies are reckless and ill motivated. He has caused countless catastrophes with his time in office: refusal to sign the Kyoto Treaty, in deference to the economy and big business, which would have gone a long way to reducing environmental pollution and global warming; a mass die off of an entire run of salmon counted on for survival by Native Americans, caused by his refusal to enforce environmental protection laws; also a breach of the treaty with said people due to the fact that our government caused the loss of their main food source, salmon; lack of diplomacy in our interactions with other nations, isolating us from other peoples and putting money ahead of humanity: and I could go on….these are only simple things, I am sure that there are more complex problems being created by his policies that I cannot comprehend.

Our major media networks here in America show us the news that will motivate and rally us to support the president, the news that will shock us, the news that gets ratings and makes money. We are not told about what the rest of the world thinks of us, we are encouraged not to question why anyone in the world might not like us, we are not well informed about what is happening in the rest of the world, but we sure hear a lot about money. I don’t listen much to the national news networks, because it is too sensationalized and doesn’t do much to inform or educate the listener. They all report the same news in the same biased, self-absorbed way. If we are to be informed we must seek out those sources, which report the unbiased truth, or as close to it as one can get.

It is frightening to hear that, here in America, where freedom of speech and respect for the views of others was once of utmost importance, it is now being suppressed. Those who might question our motivations and actions are attacked and threatened. Recently, one of our less biased public news stations has fallen under attack from the major news networks and Jewish groups for airing segments on the history of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, which did not reflect well on Israel (revealing that Israel once committed acts of terrorism itself and that it is not completely innocent of wrong doing and may have some responsibility for the conflict and bloodshed) and they were consequently accused of being anti-Semitic and forced to stop the series. Also at Harvard (one of our finest places of education), protest and debate has been brewing over Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians (as well as those policies of our own government in its support of Israel and its plans to attack Iraq). Those who have had the courage to speak their concerns have been attacked, called bigots and anti-Semites, even unpatriotic and have received threats for having the presence of mind to question the serious resolution of war and the futile solutions of Israel against its Palestinian neighbors. Although I do not agree with terrorism, I cannot agree with attacking Afghanistan or Iraq. I cannot agree with Israel’s (or our own) methods of dealing with the Palestinians (or any other enemy).

I believe that desperate, uneducated, hopeless people resort to terrorism. “Those who have nothing” to lose will resort to terrorism. Those who feel that their plight falls on deaf ears and blind eyes will resort to terrorism. My education has not been lost on me; my study of history has not gone unheeded. I strive to educate myself about the world around me and to “respond” instead of “react” (my first reaction would be to bomb the heck out of the b___ds, hopefully my response will be a thought out course of action which will eliminate the desperation which has created terrorism) to attacks on my fellow humanity, my country, or myself. I am not saying that we should not defend the defenseless or ourselves; I am saying that we must limit war to defense instead of attack. And I know that our leader has tried to change the meaning of defense to include attack.

We must all work together, those of us who are more privileged than other’s must share what we have, we must share our resources, our knowledge, our understanding, and hope with those who “have not”. Those of us who consume resources at a phenomenal rate MUST STOP. We must learn to live more simply and to take only what we “need” instead of everything we “want”. As the “aspiring super power of the planet” we have a responsibility to think about and question what is happening here. We must eliminate the root of all this bloodshed and it is not a man or a regime, but a condition: Poverty, ignorance, and lack of basic needs.

I am only one american, there are others like me, who believe as I do, who strive as I do, but we feel that our government has gotten out of control, that we are powerless, that our “government for the people, by the people” is only a myth. Our country has become controlled by the love of money. We are not giving up, but we are foundering. Our faith and our will is weakening. We feel that the power to affect change is out of our reach. Please don’t write us all off. Some of us do think of others besides “our own”. I know many of us don’t. For that I am sorry. I often find myself in tears over the bloodshed and hatred in our world. I have heard that it was once said that: a small group of ordinary people can affect great good in their world. I know that the hearts of the people of Tir are good and strong.

Thank you for hearing me.

Lacie and others, don't fear to speak out. You've more courage than I.

never trust a guest

hey Guest number one. i agree although you have forgotten the point that most of the terrorist cells are headed by men who do not buy into their own doctrine but rather crave the power fear gives them the money that comes in to support them and the adoration of those who support the doctrines.

and as for shareing the wealth(grinning because she is about to say something compltely stupid and knows it.) i'm putting myself through university and need a new car, computer, house, airoplane, brad pitt......

Guestie, I told myself that after I posted in here what I did, that I wouldnt post again.. however, I feel that your courage in speaking out, deserves recogniton!
I cant comment greatly on your Government or your President, as it would only be going on 'gut feelings', and all said and done, they mean very little at this point in time *S*.. I do however question 'why' the American's news is being edited to some degree.. after my last post, I have chatted to some friends on here.. who knew VERY little about the extent of the Bali Bombing.. no footage, no nothing !..Why?
you are right about another thing too, we as 'people' , no matter which country we are all from, should not bury our head in the sand to what is happening here *S*.....we can all shake hands if one would like, or whatever.. and we can all turn the other cheek, and pretend none of it happened.. but...besides making this room and the net a very 'fake' place, who is that helping?.. certainly not ones self *S*
I admire you for speaking out about how you feel, and I am sure that took some courage *S*
One thing I would like people to consider... If we as a handfull of people in a chatroom cant discuss how we feel, and about who.. and what 'we' as individuals feel.. then how the hell do we expect the rest of the world to do it hey?
Hang in there guestie.. all is not lost ! *S*

the Iraqis next to me pretend to be aussies, I used to think it was an odd choice.

If the eyes have no tears, the soul can have no rainbow.

It is important not to think badly of people just because they come from a certain country or belong to a certain belief. This is part of the reason the world is in such chaos: An inability to accept the differences in each other.

I work with people from Iran, I share my classes with Arabs from all over the world, an Egyptian Muslim runs a small food shop in the cafeteria at school, and they are all fine people. We must stop suspecting anyone who happens to belong to a certain group.

At one point in history Japanese Americans were rounded up, stripped of their homes, farms, and businesses and forced to live in concentration camps. Without any evidence to indicate any wrong doing, american citizens were treated like terrorists and spies, entire families, men, women, and children were forced to live in horrible conditions without the basic neccessities. We all must be very carefull about our actions in these times.

Last guest, I like your metaphor, very beautiful.

People in the US don't generally want to round up Moslems and put them in camps. There are many that do, but there will always be ignorant bigots no matter what society we live in. I'm sure Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain and Ireland all have their fair share, just like the US. I think there is a real concern in the US about those that are here illegally. The US is very easy to get into and be in illegally. Most Americans, including Arabic, Lebanese, Iranian, Iraqian, Pakistani (etc.), Americans of the Islamic Faith,get along fine. If they didn't, why would the peoples of the middle eastern countries continue to come to the US? Those of you who continue to judge the US in a bad light that have never been here, you need to see first hand how things are here before you critisize how we treat each other. The US has been the brunt of many attacks for many years. I'm sure there are many reading this saying to themselves, yeah, that's because of the US's imperialistic policies, and maybe so. But at least we have stepped up and taken a leadership role in the world for the past century for good or for ill. Great Britain and Australia's naval forces were greatly supplemented by the US during WW II, for which the US has never been repaid. And I'm not suggesting that they do, but I don't think the brits or Aussies were complaining about our assistance then.I believe that many of you have been naive to and protected from the threats out there in the world. I believe you too are subject to media propaganda. If you ask most Americans right now if they want to go to war with Iraq, I think you would find as many that want to as don't. We are deeply divided on this issue. I hope and pray that we don't get into a war. I don't want to see anyone killed, of any nationality, because of a tyranical despot and a stubborn president.
Well there I've said a little that's on my mind. Now I'm sure that all the people that resent the US can start taking pot shots at my comments. That's the way it works. .......................................................................................................................NEXT!!

Feels the same....doesn't want to go to war. You can't blame an entire country for the feelings of the few. Though it seems the world is doing just that to the U.S. If we could 'go to war' as our 'illustrious' *shakes head* president wants...if it could be at ONLY those who are in the 'terrorist mindset' and not the innocents who will inevitably be hurt just because they live in those countries...well, if it was ONLY those, then I'd be for it. But I prefer that my children and their friends not have to go to war against those who have *as do WE IN THE U.S....regardless of what y'all think of our politics, we did NOT choose this president*...been innocent bystanders in all this. Our entire country is chastised for what our president does...but have any of you really looked into how our voting process works?! One can 'win' the popular vote, but 'lose' the electoral vote...which, quite frankly, is what 'Shrub' did. It isn't fair to condemn ALL of us...and if, hell, WHEN (when Dubya has his way, so he can ride this to his next election), we go to war, there will be MANY, MANY Americans who do not agree, but will have our sons, daughters, etc. in the middle of it. Do you really think this is what we want?!
And yes, I've chosen 'guest' as my moniker for this, since it seems that there is NO leeway in the antagonism towards us (and if the rest of the world really thought about it, we are just as innocent as those we will be going to war against. The innocent of theirs correspond to the innocent of ours: doing what is required of them by their government, whether they agree or not.) God help us all.

Addressing the last three Guests .. Guest 1, Guest 2 and Guest 3 .. for the purpose of this post.

I agree with you, Guest 1 .. No one should be subject to and suffer racial vilification! Of course, many do throughout the world, including yours and mine. I have read a novel about the troubles of Japanese Americans during WWII … “Snow Falling on Cedar” I think it was called. The same happened here in Australia with Australian Germans. With hind site it is disgusting, isn’t it? We can only hope we and our children react differently ……

Guest 2, I truly hope it was not me who gave you the impression of criticism of the way Americans treat other Americans, or that you are the ‘brunt of an attack’. That was never my intention.

On your WWII issue, from my knowledge (which is meagre and mostly centres around the Campaigns my Father was involved in), the war officially began on September 3rd 1939 with Chamberlain announcing, “The War has begun”. (the US Government declaring Neutrality on September 5th 1939). I believe it was 1941, after the tragic events at Pearl Harbour that The USA entered the war. This, gratefully, also facilitated the beginning of the end of it! Had the USA not stepped up after the attack on Her own people, the World would now be a very different place. At the time, for instance, Japan was preparing to invade Australia, with Australia’s main forces stationed in the Middle East and Europe. I am unsure what ‘war debts’ the British and the Aussies have should have paid to the US, in your opinion, as a great many people lost a great deal throughout the ordeal.

I have no doubt, Guest 2, America is divided in opinion regarding using force against Iraq. It is most definitely the same here in Australia and, I should imagine, the same throughout the World.

My point is, as it was with my first ‘post’ – The USA is unquestionably ‘Big Brother’ and I would like all Her citizens to have all the knowledge they need to make informed decisions on who leads Her.

Guest 3, I am sorry you feel the ‘Rest of the World’ feels so very antagonistic to the people of your Country. I don’t think it is so. I feel they are grateful for your Nation’s strength, hopeful on your Government’s decisions and pray full of your Citizen’s election of Leaders .. it is such a bloody huge responsibility!

Good Luck to us all!!

Imagine

(post script - I choose to post with my name for three reasons.
1- I am already in deep poo-poo with some over this!! *s*
2- I honestly do not feel any hostility or antagonism to Americans in general and especially to the American friends I know, trust and love.
3- I own my opinion, and enjoy the exchange of opinions. That is how I learn.)

I can't see anything in all of the above that each contributor does not have a perfect right to say.
It saddens me that people need to choose guest as a name for fear of criticism.
Anti americanism and anti arabsism are equally wrong.
Take individuals as you find them and appreciate that groups of people and nation states are extremely complex and require a lot of thought to work out before you jump to your conclusions!!!!!!!!!!!!!(irony, irony and not a thought to think).

there were no demonstraions when the taliban were detroying century old statues of buhda, al queda was silent when muslim were being killed in Yugoslavia.