I decided that what we need to call people back to the Tir is to start a controversial subject, so here it is. Everyone keep it above board, no name calling or personal insults. (now all I need is a subject) Anyone want to come up with something (Culture, Love, and politics have all already been done, so we do not need to revisit any of those.)

All you debators, come up with a subject. Acc, perhaps you would like to give us a starting subject.

We should ban ravens crows and jays till this whole west nile thing blows over.

Ban tits as well !

Oops!
I meant that we should ban bantits. There's too many bantits going around robin people.

Ban Anna!

Ban Danna

oh oh, I don't like the direction this headed.

Head Banned

Banal Banter?

Controversial....Hmmmmm...

Is it ethically/morally correct for a woman to accept payment to become a surrogate mother to a childless couple?

Well...it's reasonably controversial...isn't it?

Ban she if she takes the money...oops :)

Why do some of the Irish coins had a big pig on them???? Banned if I know *grin*

Silk, I think that it is quite ethical. She should take her reponsibility very serious, and ensure that she does everything correctly, vitamins, healthy foods, etc. That costs money, and she is entitled to receive compensation (not to mention nine months of a body that is going through massive changes, and the after-effects of those changes which can last for many months afterward.

Tec,

This Raven always avoids mosquitos, and other bloodsucking pests. *LOL*

Yes Raven...I would agree with the points you make on the ethics of receiving payment for such a demanding service provision.

Changing the subject ever so slightly, what about the actual morality of surrogacy? Do you feel it is abhorrant to 'spirituality' and the 'collective consciousness' or an enhancement of those facets of humanity?

I'm curious.

At this time, I think it is morally okay, because it gives an otherwise childless couple the chance of raising a child, however I would imagine that it must take great mental and emotional reconciliation to arrive at the point of agreeance on a contract.

I think where the morals of a situation like that may run aground is if a couple simply do not want to go through the 'hardship or inconvenience' of a pregnancy and would rather pay for a 'rent-a-womb' situation ~ then it becomes consumeristic in nature, which I personally feel is wrong.

*swats mosquitoes and picks off leeches*

I think that it is perfectly okay from a Spirituality standpoint. I have heard of a few cases, where the implantation is done in a bedroom rather than in a lab, and I tend to wonder about those, but if all parties concerned are okay with the arrangement, who are we to argue.

One of the oldest documented case of a surragate Mother being used is when Sarah gave her handmaid Hanna to Abraham to give him a child, because she thought she was barren. If two people want a child, and are unable to produce one on their own, and they are willing to take on the responsibility and expense of surragacy, I think it enhances all parties concerned. We should applaud the woman who is willing to give of herself in such a total manner, to help two people create a family.

Banba, taking on the form of the White Pig, shakes her head at Gwydion's query about why a pig should be memorialized on an Irish Coin. Why Shouldn't they/she be there?

*lights citronella torches around the deck, to ward off any more mosquitoes*

I just noticed that the original Raven visited the Chat room some time ago, To O'Raven, welcome back. Stop by and leave a message here in the boards sometime.

wonders if renting her womb would be considered work by the division of work force services. is it tax deductable? what kind of taxes would you have to pay? for that matter, is there a going rate for room space or do you rent by the pound?


(lord help me, i am so desperate for work i am actualy doing filing for my father, which if you knew my father, is hell.)

and by and by my computer crashed, it gasped it's final gasp, so i am doing this via library computer... shhhh don't tell or i'll get banned

Good point, Laurelrose! *S* Good to see you jumping up and down on the 'Banned wagon'...ho ho ho.

Well this is an anniversary none of us like.......... so any comment could be controversial. I think we have to understand terrorists without condoning them.Many terrorists become respectable politicians after the revolution and legally execute those who keep going as it were. I believe this happenned in post colonial america and Ireland and post Royal England via Cromwell.
There will always be extemists but the wests policy in the middle east allows bin laden to flourish where he would always have existed.
The nettle has to be grasped. Israel and Palestine need to exist and be genuinely independant. That requires great sacrafices on both those peoples part. But without that the blood letting will go on. Without a permanent peace forgiveness cannot start, No one can win all they want. Compromise rules!!!!!!!
If this offends I am sorry but we do not want any more innocent people to die. Those in New York were innocent people every one of them and I am afraid it is our politicians who can stop all this and I hope they will. With words not guns,

I wrote this on the first anniversary of 9/11. I publish it as a testament of my feelings about the event, and others like it.

Those Who Answered the Call
Daryl L. Chambers Jr. Copyright 2002

The bravest and the finest
Those who answered the call
Intrepidly entered the walls of Death
As a Sacrifice for us all

Those who killed so many
Attempting to appease their God
In vain left their place on Earth
Cursed by the bloodshed on this sod

But those who laid down their lives
To save so many, unknown, others
Gave the purest possible gift
To a World full of sisters and brothers

Something unexpectedly unavoidable
Happened on that dreadful day
Thousands of martyrs were, in the fire, forged
As the furnace burned mortal frailty away


There exists no honor for those
Who have made martyrs, (We may surmise)
And upon them, their own God turns his back
As for the martyrs they made, their Prophet Cries

Yet accolades and honor welcomes
Those who answered the call
Willingly walking from this life
As a Sacrifice for us all

Forgive me, I actually wrote it in November of 2001.

Unfortunatly terrorism works,not always for the better but it still works.If the IRA had not started to bomb London the British would never have made a move to sort out the Northern Ireland problem,they did not care if people were killing each other so long as it was confined to Ireland. The IRA wiped out the main banking area by driving a lorry with 1000 lbs into city centre, phoned in a warning and the only person to get killed was a photographer for the Sun "news paper"who wanted a close up photo.
Thankfully times are more peaceful now and hopefully this peace will spread to other countries affected by terrorism, unfortunatly innocent people often get killed in the process but governments sit up and listen, "hope George Bush does before it is too late"
Those who loose there lives will never be forgotten..

I read today that in a recent poll of Americans,
about 70% of my fellow countrymen believe that Saddam was personally involved with the Sept.11 attacks. This despite the fact that there is absolutely NO evidence to support such a contention. Jaysus...guess it goes to prove the old adge that if you repeat a lie loud enough and long enough, people'll take it as truth.
Way to go, Dubya & Co. Congrats are in order.

So is regime change.

Opinion: - Polls are open to wide interpretation. The outcome depends on what questions are asked and how they are asked as to what response is forthcoming. Polls can be easily manipulated.

As an analogy I would use the area of accounting. A finance report, depending on where you slot data, may be wholly or partially incorrect but still read in a manner as to be believeable and acceptable in terms of official requirements obtained from the same.

Oh - repeating lies loud enough and long enough. Don't they call those affirmations? *grins*

no they call that journalizim? News? a wide spread conspirisy between the western worlds evil empires and a bunch of REALLY board aliens that like to pick up humans and do odd ball experiments on them in the name of sority and or and the male version of sororitys prank week.

well if they were looking for a true assesment of public opinion then they would ask what people thought not just give them little boxes to tick off.

lies, damn lies and statistics, eh? *lol

LR, I see you still have a knack for creative spelling.

Aoccdrnig to a resaerch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng
is taht the frist and lsat ltteers are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.


Preosllnay I tinhk its cmolpete Bkolcols......

:))))))

It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word... Andrew Jackson (Former President of the United States)

ROFLMAO

LMAO
Very well done Silk!

Does any one given nation have the right to bomb and kill citizens of any other given nation on spurious cause? Just because they want to.

Yes. Might makes right. I'm surprised you didn't know that. Can't we think of any other controversial subjects? Like, if a nation doesn't share your particular religious and moral ideals, do they have the right to fly airplanes full of innocent citizens into large buildings full of more innocent citizens? Or how about, if you don't like a particular ethnic or religious group in your own country, do you have the right to bomb and poison them with nerve gas? Or how about this one, if you don't like what an oppressing country is doing to your country, do you have the right to put a bomb on a bus full of innocent citizens and blow it up just to terrorize that country's government and people? I don't really want an answer to any of these and I would think that during this season where we seek peace and goodwill toward mankind, is the time to get into any of this. In fact, I don't think any time is. Unless you've got a solution to any of this, then why don't you just keep your gob shut about it. How's that for controversial?

Nations don't kill people. People kill people.

Would you say the same thing about guns? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
How many kids fighting for the U.S. would have killed anybody in Iraq had they not been called upon to do so by their government? Darn guest (presuming you are the same guest), do I have to explain everything to you? Lets get into controversy about cloning, or uthanasia of humans. Why do we have to get into this same old tired shite about one nation versus another. Why don't you just come out and say what's on your mind? Come on, have the courage to say it. You think the United States is a bunch of war mongering pigs, Al Gore should be president and he could have solved the 911 situation and world terrorism using accupuncture, buddhism and environmentally friendly vehicles.