Guest asked who was Setanta's foster brother.

His foster mother was Finnchaem, brother of Conchobhur, king of the Ulster men. Her son was Conall Cernach, so he must have been Setanta's foster brother.

Do I win a cigar?

Next question is in two parts!

1, Who's head did CuChullain chop off in 'Bricriu's Feast?'

2. Which Arthurian knight went through the same ordeal?

the green knight fella ???

You're getting warm, lacie. The Green Knight got his head chopped off. But which of Arthur's knights did the deed?

Sir Gwain!!!

I suppose I have to give you the cigar, lacie.

Sir Gawain.

Ok. Question 1.2, part B.

What was the family relationship between Sir Gawain and Arthur

Gawain was Arthurs foster brother .. (note spelling)

Incorrect! Hah! Caught her!

Out, that is!

Gawain was his nephew...cuz Morgaine was Arthur's sis, and Gawain was her son.

Answer to Question 1.
Cuchulainn chopped off Cu Roi mac Dairi's head at the feast. But when he did it, he only knew it was a bachlach. It wasnt until Cuchulainn had been named the most noble warrior that the bachlach was identified. *phew* I think that's right?

you got it, sorcha *grin* .. that is the green night dude versus gawain thingy ............. Lost Soul .. my son Ben, says you are absolutely right, and Mum is really, really dumb *L* .. he loooves all of this ..!! *L*
come on Shae .. give us the answers ..

Full marks to Lostsoul and Sorcha. Both correct.

Ok, here's one for Ben. What was the design on the front of Sir Gawain's shield?

And just to keep the CuChulain thread going, who was CuChullain's son and how did he die?

No response?

Ok, hint time.

The design on Sir Gawain's shield had five sides.

CuChullain's son was named Connla.

Who killed him?

CuChullain killed his own son. He didn't know who he was...if I remember right.

Full marks again to Lostsoul!!

Yes, CuChullain killed his own son.

Next question!

CuChullain's son was named Connla, but who was his mother?

And!!

What age was Connla when CuChullain killed him?

Shae, the absolute only thing I can find about Gawaine's shield is in "The Once and Future King" by T.H.White. It says: "or, a chevron gules, between three thistles vert". *translation? L*
Um..Connla's mom...I can almost remember! I'll find it tomorrow (I hope! =)). How old was he? Boy, where are you coming up with these??? *S*

Hi, Lostsoul!

I'm using the translation of 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight', by Marie Borroff, as my source. According to that, the design on the front of his shield was a pentagram.

Connla's mom was Scathach's daughter. Scathach was a warrior goddess who taught CuChullain all the tricks of the warrior trade.

Where am I coming up with these? The Táin Bó Cualinge. Kinsella's translation.

And her name was Aife...correct? (At least that's how it's spelt in the book I found! *L*)

When you said five-sided I thought pentagram, but then I thought that that was too obvious! *reminds herself to follow her instincts* =)

Ok...I'm ready for the next question!

Hi, Lostsoul!

Yes, her name was Aife. In modern Irish it would be spelt Aoife.

You still haven't told me who killed CuChullain's son.

Ok, Next question for Lostsoul and Ben.

The Pentangle was the design on the front of Sir Gawain's shield. What was on the inside? The side he could see in battle?

Um, Shae...I did say who killed his son, but I haven't got a clue as to how old he was when he died. *L* I'm totally guessing on this one, but was a red dragon on the inside of Gawaine's shield? *wonders if she gets brownie points for the Aife answer* *L*

Connla was seven when he died- Aoife was to send him to the Cu when the ring he left with her fit Connla's finger. She was also to tell him never to back down from a fight, never to give any man his name, and never to make way for any man.

And as long as we're at it, does anyone have any other sources for Scathach besides the Tain?? She needs a song!

Sorry, LostSoul, you did say CuChullain killed his own son.

Connla was seven years old when CuChullain killed him.

No, the device (symbol) on the inside of Sir Gawain's shield was not a dragon. It was a depiction of Mary.

Next question!
Connla's grandmother, Scathach, lived where?

Scathach lived on the Isle of Women, otherwise known as the Isle of Apples! *sees the competition and realizes she's in serious trouble!! *L****

Oh, and one of Morgan Llewellyn's books..unfortunately I've forgotten the name and alot of my books are packed away in the garage...has a different version of Scathach, but it's still interesting. Oh...it's "Bard". =)

That's a wonderful book! But how do you tell when the mythology leaves off and Morgan Llywelyn takes over?? Scathach lived on the Isle of Skye-- She had another famouds student, who was later defeated by the Cu--what was his name and what was so distictive about his armor?

'twas FerDiad...and his armor was himself. He'd become like bone everywhere..he was no longer skin.

Try this again *wonders where her first message went..?* He defeated FerDaid, and his armor was himself. He had transformed from skin to armor (as if he was a beetle with a shell) after nearly being killed when they were still students of Scathach.

Oh sure...there it is! *LLL*

We seem to have run out of CuChullain questions.

Acc? Could you do some housekeeping on this thread? It's getting a bit long.

Ok, next question. Who killed CuChullain?

Housekeeping *sigh*

It's the 'original sessions' that I need to take a meat-cleaver to.
This thread is better (but not perfect), since it kept mainly to the Cuch/Setanta topic, and only strayed a little into those other Celts.

Self-regulation is all folks!
Remember to start a new topic as a "New Conversation", and stray ye not from the path!

Not perfect?????

*takes a little bit of umbrage, but not too much since Acc is the host***

What I meant, Acc, was that it might be a good idea to clear the old questions that have been answered. I'm fairly sure that anyone who has been following the thread will have seen everything, and I don't want it to get long enough to cause time-outs.

*wonders....the other session is playing for a personalized walking stick and a One-of-a -kind pic of Tir regs....is there a prize here? (dusting off an empty shelf)* *L*

Lugaid killed the Cu--Run out of questions about him?? Never! Who was Cuchullain unfaithful to Emer with? How did Emer get him back (And this ain't in the cycle--but why would she want him back after that?? There's a book out recently that theorizes that she didn't. Special Bonus!!)

And chopping the beginning of this thread wouldn't be a bad idea, though it's just the sort of thing I come to the Tir for! Love your new toy, Acc!

Yep, Roisín, Lugaid was the perpetrator. Ok, who killed Lugaid?

CuChullain was unfaithful twice - once with Scathach's daughter, Aife, who bore his son, and also with Fand,or Fann, of the Sidhe. I guess it's Fand you mean when you ask how did Emer get him back.

She went with the women of Ulster to kill Fand but when she met Fand and CuChullain she got him to admit that he wanted her as his wife and Fand was so ashamed at being deserted she left him.

I haven't come acroos the book you mention. What is it?

The book is called:
_On the Edge of Dream: The Women of Celtic Myth and Legend_, Jennifer Heath, Plume: New York, 1998
ISBN 0-452-27938-0.

Has an interesting take on Emer and the Cu--the way she sees it, Emer was in love at first, but being the one left behind all the time took its toll over the years.

Conall Cernach killed Lugaid, who buried the Cu?

I think you've got me, Roisín. I've checked everything I have and can't find the answer. Put me out of my misery.

Dunno about Heath's thesis. Have you read Emer's Lament on the death of CuChullain? It's very long, so I won't post it all here, but here's an extract, addressed by Emer to Liath Macha, which indicates to me that she loved him till the end.

Say that I knew an enchanted time
As his spouse sixteen years
We are due an end to pain
We follow the shadowy tribes
and peoples each of us
from augury to certainty
We weep for each other
We have pity on each other

Life now is wretched
We will not meet another day
Liath Macha!

Conall Cernach buried the Cu, after ranging far and bringing back the heads of many of his enemies as a tribute. This from Lady Gregory's _Cuchulain of Muirthemne_, source wise.

One of the things I like best about Irish myth is that so many conflicting versions of a Tale can be equally true- I would expect a woman who had devoted a large part of her public persona to being Wife of the Cu to compose complimentary verses on his death, but what did she feel when no one was around? Here's a small bit of Heath's story:

"I've lost my voice. The Drink of Oblivion the druids gave us obscures my story, but not my pain. CuChullain drank it to forget Fand. I drank it to forget he loved her. Thus, I have no words to remind my husband of my jealousy. Forgiveness will come because it must. But I will not truly forget. ...

"What has led you, Hound of Ulster," I hissed between gritted teeth, "to shame me before the women of Eriu and all honorable people? I came under your shelter, trusting in your faithfulness, believing in your love, and now you rush to her! You are no Hound, but an unweaned pup!"

Cuchulain stammered and protested. My hero is too young, too strong, too beautiful. Why, he stuttered, would I not be content to take my turn with other women? And this one could only flatter me, make me look better,for she is incomparably lovely and moreover a Queen of the Otherworld...

The druids gave us the Drink of Oblivion and immediately upon swallowing it, CuChulainn fell into this wasting sickness. He writhes as if he were whipped by horses goads. He moans and flails. Time rebukes us for our faults. Time stitches the torn fabric that binds us. I watch over him but cannot forget.

Do I want him? Do I want half a heart? At least he won't live long."

Jennifer Heath, _On the Edge of Dream_

Where did that Lament you quoted come from, Shae??

The lament is from the death tale of CuChullain, translated from the original scripts by Marie somebody whose name I can't remember now but I will tell you tomorrow. The source is at work.

The Jennifer Heath quotation seems a little suspect to me. I'll check it out, though, and let you know.

You asked what did Emer really feel when no one was around. Well, she spoke her lament to the Liath Macha, who was Cu's horse. Ok, he was an Otherworld horse, but still a horse. Not a human. So I think it's reasonable to assume that she was speaking from her heart.

Emer's Lament comes from 'Two death tales from the Ulster Cycle: The death of Cu Roi and the death of CuChulainn.' Translated from the Irish by Maria Tymoczko, Dolmen Press (Dublin - ISBN 0 85105342 4) and Humanities Press Inc (North America - ISBN 0 391 02136 2), 1981.

Lady Gregory's 'CuChulainn' is good but you need to bear in mind that she wrote it primarily for a rural Irish audience and has 'sanitised' the story somewhat by refining the coarse elements and rationalising some of the more overt pagan aspects.

Ok, next question(s). Emain Macha was the royal seat of Ulster. How did it get the name and what does in mean?

Two origins for it: One, it means "brooch of Macha" because Macha drew out the outlines of the wall with her brooch. Two, it means "Twins of Macha", because Macha was forced to run against the horses of the king of Ulster there while pregnant, and had twins on the finish line- this event was the cause of the debility of the Ulstermen.

Back atcha--who was Macha's "husband", and why is that term for him only half true?

Thanx for the ref--I found another version of the death of the Cu as well, it's in _The Celtic Heroic Age_, John Koch, ed., Celtic Studies Publications: Malden, MA.,1995. ISBN 0-9642446-1-6

I think we have a slightly different view of mythic truth--to me, a different version does not have to be entirely reconcilable with its fellows, all versions add something to the story. The Macha Tale is a good example of this. There's a useful concept called ternary analogy--a Tale is told from different perspectives, and each is like viewing an object from a different place. A statue doesn't look the same when viewed from the front or the back, but it's still the same statue. Irish myth does the same thing with people. When you see several people bearing the same name, the Seven Maines, for example, often they are the same person and the exploits and number will tell you something more about the character and their importance to the story. to take the Seven Maines, the # 7 is connected to the ordinary world, the one where battles are fought and the realm of rulers. Contrast this to the three sons of Usnach, who spent most of their time away from civilization, all but in the Otherworld. Three is the number associated with the Otherworld, and eternity. But I'm sure that's more than enough for a board. Shae, I don't have an e-mail for you, but I'd love to play with this stuff in detail, and get into Emer more. I find Heath suspect in ways that I won't go into here, but she also adds understanding--my e-mail is connected to my page, or we can exchange in the Tir--I don't wanna post mine on a message board..

Macha's husband was a wealthy farmer named Crunniuc mac Agnomain. 'Husband' is only half true because they were never formally wed. She just appeared from nowhere one day and moved in with him. Why does something like that never happen to me?

And that's not the next question!

Why was CuChullainn unique by not suffering the debility of the Ulstermen?

Talking about numbers, and their significance in Celtic mythology, Rees and Rees discuss them in detail in their book 'Celtic Heritage,' Thames & Hudson; ISBN: 0500270392. As you say, the number three is associated with the Otherworld and magic, and nine (three threes) has extra significance. For example, CuChullainn had a triple birth and, in the Fionn cycle, the horse that carries Oisin to Tír na nÓg paws the ground three times before carrying him over the sea.

Three was important in real life too. Lindow Man was found preserved in a bog in Cheshire, England, and he had suffered a triple death, leading to the assumption that he was a human sacrifice.

I'll get your e-mail next time we meet in Tír, Roisín.

Two answers *surprise*-- One, Cuchullainn wasn't old enough yet to suffer the Pangs, he did everything early, including the defense of Ulster. Two, he wasn't really an Ulsterman, as his father was Lugh, though that triple birth really did muddy the waters *g*. And is Muirthemne Plain really inside Ulster of the period? My geography isn't as good as I might wish.

Rees & Rees is an incredible book! And really too much in it to get out in one reading. It shows how many levels this stuff needs to be read on, and just how deeply layered was the oral tradition.

So, which warrior of Medb's army refused to fight the Cu because he didn't have a beard? And how did Cuchullain solve the problem?

Right again! The main reason he didn't suffer the Pangs of the Ulstermen was because he was concieved in Brú na Bóinne (Newgrange), which is in Leinster.

I think the warrior you mean is Lóch. He felt it was beneath him to fight someone so young and offered to send one of his own youths to fight CuChulainn instead. The women of Medb's camp scorned CuChulainn because he didn't have a beard and advised him to rub berry juice on his face. This he did, and also spoke through a handfull of grass to give him the appearance of having a beard.

Next questions! *bets he'll stump her with these*

During the fight with Lóch, CuChulainn was attacked three times by the Morrigan - as an eel, a she wolf and a red heifer. Each time he was attacked, he injured her in a different part of her body.

1. Name the three different parts
2. Name another goddess (pre-Ulster cycle) who was similarly injured when she misbehaved.

OK--he broke the eel's ribs, put the wolf's eye out, and broke the heifer's leg (hey--this guy really was fun at parties)

As for the other part--Shae, you sent me to the books, and I came back emptyhanded... Enlighten me!

Jaysus... I've never even been here before *LOL

Welcome, Fionn. See what you've been missing!

Roisín, the answer to the second part is in one of the Dinsenchas, or place-name, stories. Boann (or Boand) was married to Nechtan. Nechtan was keeper of a magic well and nobody except he and his three cup-bearers could view the well without their two eyes bursting. Boann, through pride, went to the well one day, declaring that it had no secret force that could harm her. She walked three times from right to left around the well and immediately three waves broke over her, depriving her of a thigh, a hand and an eye. She fled towards the sea but the water caught up with her and drowned her. The resultant river is called the Boyne, after Boann.

In another version, she escapes drowning.

Ok, why did the Morrigan attack CuChulainn, and how did she trick him into curing her of the injuries he inflicted on her?

To the victor go the questions?? *LOL* Most of the really violent things happen naming places, it seems.

The Morrigan attacked the Cu because he was rude, plain and simple. She came to him in disguise, and he basically told her to take a hike, he didn't have time for her. Then she told him how she'd attack him, and he threatened her back. The injuries he inflicted on her had to be cured with his blessing, so she came to him in disguise--an old woman milking a cow. She gave him three drinks of milk, and he blessed her for each one, curing her. Either this guy wasn't too awfully bright, or he knew it was her.

OK, What Welsh mythic tale parallels the time Cuchullain spent in the Otherworld with Fand, and why could the hero in it be considered more honorable than Cuchulainn?

I just want to tell everyone goodbye and I'll be thinking of you all.......
Boy, you guys sure know alot of stuff!!!!
Everyone have a Happy St. Patrick's Day
Slan go foill!!!!!!!!!
Meiriceanach

Meiriceanach! Don't just disappear like that!

Come back!!! I need you! That Roisín person has defeated me at last. I don't know Welsh mythology. Ok, I know a little, but not enough to answer her questions. So, I need all the help I can get.

Roisín, is it ok if I call in reinforcements? Or is that cheating?

I'll find out anyway!

In the meantime, what has the Morrigan and St. Bridget in common?

This question is kinda speculative, so anybody who has an opinion is welcome to join in.

Anybody want to talk about Shiela-na-Gigs?

What's cheating? For that matter, what are the rules? Hey, Meir--join in!

I know next to nothing about the Sheelas, other than the bare minimum. Go for it! I wanna know more!

As for the Morrigan and Bridget, well, they're both triple Goddesses, but I don't think that's what you were after. The frenzy of battle and the frenzy of poetic inspiration could be considered similar, though. Healing and battle are also two ends of the same continuum, though the Morrigan also has attributes of fertility and fecundity, which Bridget lacks, at least in the physical sense. Though you could consider poetic children to be offspring in a sense... Both are also rulers of their own domains, Bridget is more a title than a name after all, but I don't know if the Morrigan ever had a sanctuary equivalent to Kildare. Hey, they relit the fire at Kildare a couple of years ago, BTW--the tradition reborn!

This lady sure knows her stuff!

Both are also connected with Otherworld cattle. The Morrigan went to warn the Donn, and later tricked CuChulainn into healing her by giving her milk from a red and white cow (Otherworld colours) that had three teats. Saint Brigid was supposed to have had a red and white cow that supplied enough milk for the needs of the monastery.

She wasn't unique in that, though. A few early Saints had cows with siminal qualities. St. Manchan founded a monastery in Co. Offaly after studying in Clonmacnoise and he was reputed to have had a cow that supplied the monastery and the surplus was given away. Farmers in the area still won't sell their milk. They use what they need themselves and give away any surplus.

I saw Brigid's Flame about four years ago, but in Limerick, not Kildare. It was used in a concert of Irish traditional/religious music held at Imbolc (1st and 2nd February).

Shiela-na-gigs are enigmatic. Nobody knows what their purpose was. They are stone carvings of female figures, usually hag-like, with pendulous breasts and VERY prominent genitalia. They first appear on Irish church walls around the 13th century, although there are some possible Shielas from much earlier on mainland Europe. They later appear on Irish castle walls. Because they first appeared on church walls, it was thought they might be a reminder to the congregation of the sin of lust. But that wouldn't explain their appearance on castle walls, where they would be more likely to represent fertility, or possibly some form of protection.

So, I'd be delighted to hear any other theories or explanations for Shiela-na-gigs.

Oh dear, I'm adding a bit on Sheela's to Setanta/Cuch.
(If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em)


An image and brief background at http://homepage.tinet.ie/~ccm/sile_na_gig.html

Some text material at:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jup/witches/notes/sheila_HOPOS.html


Time for a new conversation?

ya just cant resist, can you Acc? *smile*

Does your query mean we've done the Setanta/Cú thing to death, or do you want to start a separate board for Shielas, Acc?

I don't think we have enough info on Shielas to start a separate discussion but there's no harm in giving it a go if you think it would be worthwhile. Of course, you haven't heard MY theory yet!

Stop twisting my arm!!! Oh, all right, I'll tell you.

It was the practice in Celtic Ireland for the king, on appointment, to be ritually wed to the land, or Sovereignty. Sovereignty is often depicted as a hag who turns into a beautiful woman after being kissed by the rightful king. If Sovereignty accepted the king, then his rule would be fruitful because she symbolised fertility.
Now for the theory. What if the king had some depiction of Sovereignty on his dwelling? This would show that he had been accepted by Sovereignty and it would be a visible symbol of his right to rule. At a time when most dwellings were made of clay, and roofed with thatch, it is concievable that such a depiction of Sovereignty would have been made from straw or wood, much like Brigid's Crosses still are today, and none would have survived. This tradition could have been carried on to the time when stone dwellings were first built, from about the 15th century onwards. Sovereignty, in the form of a Shiela-na-gig, was carved into the castle wall.

This doesn't explain why they appear first on churches, though. Well, until about the ninth century, most monastery buildings were wooden. After a while, the monks got fed up with their buildings being burned to the ground by Vikings and Irish chieftains, and started using stone. By the 12th century, most of the larger stone church buildings were being sponsored by local chieftains. Cormac's Chapel at Cashel, for instance, was built by the king of Munster. If the king was in the habit of depicting Sovereignty on his own dwelling, would it not follow that he would want to depict her on his other buildings too, especially one as important as a church?

As I mentioned, it's all theory and we will probably never know the answer. However, the ritual mating of the king to Sovereignty was still going on in the early 13th century, as recorded by Gerald of Wales.

That's fun! And makes a lot of sense--Macha having her twins/the ritual mating of the king with a white mare, and the Sheela's appearance seem to resonate with each other, and tie in with ballads such as King Henry, where the king lies down with the hag out of courtesy and rises next to the fair maiden--ya know the variations, I'm sure *g*. Hey, I don't necessarily think we've done the Tain to death, but we could always do another board or three. It's all a stupid filing trick anyway, isn't it?

Works for me!
The hag/maiden thing appears throught the ages.

Ahem!
Stupid filing trick??
Really well-considered scientific filing trick! D'ye mind?

Seriously - Some of the topics may get lengthy - and all very well it's on the topic of the title.
Going off-topic even once encourages the thing to sprout messages in all directions. We'd end up with huge downloads.

K, Acc. The Hag/maiden thing crosses boundaries that have connections with the Ulster Cycle, Arthuriana, the Cailleach, Brigit. . . . .and so on and so on and.......

Maybe you could lift the Shiela stuff from here to a new board and we could start from there.

On the other hand, maybe there wouldn't be enough interest. This discussion has been between meself and Roisín for the most part, and I'm afraid we're just indulging ourselves at the expense of storage space. Lemme know what you think. I won't be around for a day or two.

We'll see how it goes. A friend here in Cobh keeps encouraging me to add a section on Sheela-na-Gigs to the Tír. It's an aspect of our history that does not get much of an outing (for some strange reason ~he said innocently~).
I need more time *sigh* - for that and for a lot of other things.

As for indulgence, don't worry. Others might not be chipping in, but they certainly are reading (and learning). The storage space is of no account.

K, Acc. Start a Sheela section if you think it would be useful.

In the meantime, Roisín can continue to outwit me in the Setanta/Cu board. See if I care *sniffle*!!!!

*Roisin pets a chip or two in the bowels of the Tir* I should never have disparaged your wonderful, scientifical filing tricks!

Shae, you silly thing! I still haven't recovered from Boann! Or Sheela, for that matter. Hey, Acc, I've skimmed through most of my library and can't seem to find anything about Sheelas other than the most basic info. I've got to see if I can locate a copy of _The Witch on the Wall_ (from your website cite *g*), and a friend of mine is going to try and locate a book she has on the subject. This was a well chosen topic, if there's this little on it, it really needs to be looked into. Thank you for making me think about something I thought I knew about! The bit about them being over the doorways of some churches (also from the site) is confusing, if intriguing. Are these figures connected with Sovereignty? Would seem to make sense, in view of the story of the Pangs of Ulster.

As long as I'm at it, here's a question I don't have an answer to--and would dearly appreciate one!

What was the name of Deirdriu's mother? And where did the info, if anyone has an answer, come from? The poor woman deserves better than just to be known as the wife of Fedlimid!

As Accasbel said...there are those of us still reading and learning..*raises her hand*. Just don't answer any more cuz I'm out of your league now...completely clueless! *L* Couldn't find any name for her mom, either...

I have two different versions of the story and she's not named in either. I'll ask around.

Something else I'm wondering about. When Deirdriu saw the raven drinking the cow's blood on the snow, I wonder was she looking at the Morrigan.

Btw, for those of you who aren't familiar with the Ulster Cycle, there's a good collection of the stories at:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/6084/index.html

*also raises her hand*

reading and learning...

Thanks for checking, one and all! The only place I've ever seen her named was in a Morgan Llywelyn book. All well and good, but where does research end and poetic license take over?? I've been through a raft of different retellings of the Deirdriu story, and so far, no luck.

Don't despair, Roisín. If she has a name, we'll find it.

Found an interesting link--a buncha pix of Sheelas:
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~taramc/sheela.html
And a wanted poster for a stolen Sheela, with a book cite at the end:
http://fethard.com/histor/sheela.html
Enjoy!

And a site that has the whole of the Tain online-
http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/Cooley/
And I promise I'll stop now!

Don't you dare stop !!!!

Why Acc! *blush* If you insist...
I just happened to come across this:
http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/
Which rendered most of my earlier searches for individual links to Irish texts superfluous. This site is awesome. and covers a lot more than the ancient stuff.

Hey, the bit about the Morrigan and the Deirdriu raven was interesting, Shae--the sight of the slaughtered calf on the snow set off the whole chain of events that led to the sundering of the Ulaid. I'd prefer to think that Deirdriu knew her own mind, but the idea to go after Naoise now doesn't seem to be hers alone in light of this.

The comparison with Scathach--another woman who really did know her own mind, made her choices, and lived with the consequences, now doesn't fit quite so neatly. What divided the two? Beauty, to be sure, and gender roles, but what would have happened to Deirdriu if she hadn't seen the crow?

luminarium is wonderful.
I could have sworn I had a link to it from the main area of the Tír.

*really have to get cracking on that again - got a mass of bookmarks - and not much time*

Well, Roisín, I dunno, but it seems to me that Deirdriu was more or less guided by the sight of the black raven, the red blood and the white snow when she decided she wasn't going to marry Conchobhur. She wanted somebody who had the same colouring - black, red and white - and there was only one person who fitted the bill.

Deirdriu was locked up, so that she wouldn't cause the strife that had been predicted by the druid at her birth. Only a few people could visit her, and she was destined to marry Conchobhur. But the druid's prediction had to come true, so the only way that could happen was by the intervention of a deity, and who better in this case than the Morrigan?

No, Deirdriu didn't seek Naoise; she was told he was the only person who fitted the description of the person she wanted to marry. But when she did see him, she knew he was the only one for her. And, as you said, that's what led to the sundering of Ulster.

I don't know if the Raven was the Morrigan, but I'm pretty sure it was.

If Deirdriu hadn't seen the crow?

She probably would have accepted what was in store for her, would have married Conchobhur, and wouldn't have had to dash her brains out on the rock.

But she did see the crow, and if she hadn't, we wouldn't have Deirdre of the Sorrows, the tale of the Sons of Uisniu, the story of Conchobhur's treachery, and the defection of Fergus to Medbh. We mightn't even have had the Táin!

Well, I don't think she was quite that much of a jellyfish... And personally, I think that if anyone's to blame for all of this, it's Conchobor. There were other ways of dealing with the prophecy than trying to make a slave of the poor infant, and he could have stopped the whole thing at any time by giving her up--or giving her her own choice. Sure, he would have lost face, but he set himself up for that when he claimed her like a piece of property and so tied his own honor to the whole chain of events. But Conchobor always struck me as a bit of a brat.

I do think that you're right, and the Morrigan did set all this in motion, along with Leborcham, but Deirdriu did have a mind of her own. She picked Naoise, but if she hadn't, would she have either run off with someone else, either before or after marriage, or simply tried to tell Conchobor to shove it? There are many ways her destiny could have played out, and the one that happened is a bit more honorable than some of the others could have been.

And what about Cathbad? He's not exactly the most honorable guy in mythology. What he told Nessa, which led to Conchobor's birth (in one version, that is) was a bit self-serving, and he sure didn't do much to deal with the whole Deirdriu mess. In a way, his hands could be considered tied, but there might have been ways he could have at least mitigated some of it. If he knew so much about Deirdriu, he sure was choosy about what he revealed, for one thing. Could he have said nothing? Could he have warned Fergus, if he could do it for Conchobor? Could he have told them that locking Deirdriu up would have fulfilled the prophecy?

And what is this story saying? It seems to give equal weight to the interpretation that women are trouble, or trying to take womens' freedom away is trouble, and it has some very pointed things to say about honor as well. I wonder, if everyone had acted honorably, could the whole thing have been avoided? Was it a test of honor that the Ulaid as a whole failed? I don't think there's a person in the story who acted completely honorably except for Fergus' sons. I have heard this story referred to as a continuation of Macha's curse. The scream Naoise gives can be seen as an echo of both Macha's scream as she gives birth, and Deirdriu's scream in her mother's womb. He was trapped at that point, for he'd lose honor whether he went with Deirdriu or not.

Sorry, folks, I've been a bit tied up recently. And NO comments from you, Acc!

Gawd, Roisín! There's a whole thesis in all the questions you pose!

Ok, just take Cathbad. It seems to me he was just doing his job as druid. Nessa asked him what today was good for and he told her it was good for making a king. She had a quick look around, didn't see any other man in sight, and decided he'd do. Ok, he didn't seem to have any objections, but it was Nessa who was the main player.

Similarly in the case of Deirdriu's scream from the womb. He was just doing his job. He was asked to interpret what the scream meant, which he did. He predicted that the baby was a girl who would lead eventually to bloodshed and death of the men of Ulster. Maybe Conchobhur was just being humanitarian when he saved her from being killed at birth and decided to keep her for himself. Maybe he thought by doing that he could avoid Cathbad's predictions and save Ulster?

OK, let's take Cathbad... To get irreverent and more than a bit off-topic, he reminds me of Garak from Star Trek:Deep Space Nine. The same sort of shading/selecting of what truths to tell, the same high intelligence and orderly organization of information--and the same way of making the truth serve his ends!

But back to mythology- The beauty of Cathbad's actions is that you can't tell if he was simply doing his job or if he was serving his own ends--or doing both at the same time, which I think is more likely. Definitely, if he were asked, he had to give an answer. A person of that class (Bard/Brehon/Druid(BBB)) is the holder of the knowledge that belongs to the community, and is duty bound to give an answer. But what answer does one select, from all the information that one has, both from schooling and from observation/intuition? How does one phrase the answer? Would it not have been just as accurate to say that Conchobor's actions would doom Ulster, rather than putting the whole mess on Deirdriu's plate? For that matter, why not let them kill the infant? It wouldn't have been right, but neither was the course Conchobor chose. I just looked it up--Cathbad didn't say a word in the Kinsella Tain about that. What is one's duty when the information is desperately needed, but not requested?

And now we come to Nessa, who isn't one of my favorites either. I suppose a self-serving question deserved a self-serving answer. And Cathbad certainly played to her ego--'getting a king on a queen' indeed!

Though Cathbad isn't entirely free of the dictates of fate himself. He never intended Cu Chulainn to hear the prophecy on the day he took arms.

So how much of this is fate, and how much is honor? And it's easy to write it as if fate were the main influence after the fact--though we'll never really know, I suppose, just how much of any of these Tales are based in history and filtered through oral tradition. Though they've excavated Emain Macha!

Lots of questions again!

What answer did Cathbad select,and how did he phrase the answer?

I don't think he was all that selective when he was asked about Dierdriu's scream, and I think he was very forthright with his answer. He foretold the destruction of Ulster, because of her. He was very precise about how the destruction would occur. He didn't suggest she should be killed at birth. The people who were there to hear his prophecy wanted her death, not Cathbad. Conchobhur took fate into his own hands when he decided to keep her for himself. So I reckon he doomed Ulster. But I still think the Morrigan was there in the background, and she helped Deirdriu to take a course of action that was already predicted and had to happen.

Question? Why did she do that, if that's what she did?

'Getting a king on a queen'? Well, it happened, didn't it? Maybe he knew there was no other male around at the time, maybe he planned it that way, but it seems to me that Nessa took the opportunity when it was going.

Yep, they've excavated Emain Macha. The most interesting part of the excavation to me so far is the nearby lake, where they've discovered quite a few votive offerings.

There are lots of indications coming out of the research that the main centres, like Emain Macha, Tara, Cruachan, and especially Uisneach, were really centres of special ritual significance, rather than places of residence. But it's early days yet.

Anyway, who was the Morrigan's mother?

NYAAAAA!!!!

I tend to phrase things as questions in order to avoid pronouncements--though I suppose I do my fair share of those as well... I don't really mean any of this as a challenge.

Yes, the destruction of Ulster did happen exactly as Cathbad said it would, but to my mind, you can see it as Conchobor's doing, or Deirdriu's, depending on your point of view. If she never existed, it wouldn't have happened, but if Conchobor had never tricked Fergus out of the kingship, it might not have happened either.

For that matter, when Cathbad lay with Nessa and Conchobor was conceived, could that not be seen as the cause of the whole mess? In which case it was Cathbad's fault? *grin*

Once Deirdriu was locked away, the Morrigan took a hand, with the aid of Leborcham--and that was a lovely bit of decoding, BTW. Associating Leborcham, satire and the Morrigan is an interesting set of concepts to play with as well. Fertility out of destruction indeed! As far as why the Morrigan took a hand...Well, she could have been setting herself up a future feast, or taking a hand in the testing of Ulster, or assuring her darling Cu his future fame as foretold by Cathbad. (A triple purpose *s*)To expand on option #2, she was setting the Ulstermen a test of honor, and destruction was the price of failure (makes ya wonder what would have happened if it was indeed a test, and they had passed)

And I still wonder. if a druid could be seen as swimming in the waters of fate and walking the land at the same time, then the answers they gave could both fulfill fate and shape it at the same time. To my mind, fate isn't set in stone at the time it happens, but once people get around to telling the story, it was destined to be the way it turned out. Our modern history books are written in this way, after all. And I suppose I'd better stop before I fly out into the Otherworld entirely...

The Morrigan was the daughter of Ernmas.

Now, who took the hollow hill and by what trickery did he keep it?

And to elaborate further(ya knew I couldn't resist *s*), would a druid's training enable them to distinguish likely endings for all actions taken, and the interactions of those actions, and their effects on results? This would be a mammoth problem as far as juggling all the variables, and is in itself an argument for having to memorize all that information, so as to have it a part of ones thought processes rather than having to choose which bit to look up. This also makes sense in light of the idea that to write something down is to rob it of life--it isn't accessible to the thought process as itself if you have to look it up.

The training of a druid would then be one organic whole, once finished. (though it would never be truly finished then, would it?*s*)Part of the job would also be used to having to take all the different variables into account, and the honored position and high status of a druid would truly be earned.

To bring this back to Cathbad--perhaps enough of the problem wouldn't be visible to him at the time he bedded Nessa, so he wouldn't realize that Conchobor's birth would set off the whole mess with Deirdriu. Perhaps the greater the druid, the further forward they could see the consequences of events.

And to get back to Deirdriu, perhaps the phrasing of the answer to point to Deirdriu was part of the test(and Cathbad would likely be being tested at the same time, he is Ulaid, after all)--the Ulaid at that point sure didn't seem to treat women very well. From Macha's scream to Deirdriu's, the events necessary to the test had been set in motion, and would the Ulaid see the pattern, or just accept what Cathbad told them at face value and not look deeper?

The one thing these guys weren't good at was introspection, and in a way, the Pangs were a means of making them sit down and shut up long enough to think things through before they reacted violently. Most of their problems stemmed from taking action before they thought. The fact that the test (if test it was) was seen through the lens of their treatment of women was because that was the part of their honor they were leaving behind, and the Pangs were the big clue they missed, that could have given them the key to the whole situation.

Of course, this is only one way the Cycle could be seen, and to me, that's part of the genius of these Tales, the product of generations of input before they were transcribed. There are so many lessons, none negating any of the others, and so many levels of meaning that each time you read one, a different insight can come popping out.

At it again!
Check this out--a reason why Nessa was the way she was--
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/6084/con-t.html

Apologies again for delaying. Lots of things happening here, like Spring and gardens needing digging and seeds needing sowing.

Once again, Roisín, there's a thesis in all your questions and comments.

Dunno about the druid's training. All we know is they spent 20 years at it. So I suspect they were fairly knowledgeable at the end of that period. I'm VERY doubtful about divination, being a scientist, but I can accept it in myth stories. So, while Cathbad predicted the demise of Ulster having heard Deirdriu's scream from the womb, I suspect this was part of the storyteller's technique to retain the attention of his/her audience.

You mentioned Emain Macha and, by chance, I came across something today that gave me more info on something that has been bothering me for a while.

Emain Macha was the headquarters of King Conchobhur, in the Ulster cycle. However, archaeological evidence shows that it was inhabited, or used for a ritual purpose, from about the 8th century BC until about 100 BC. So, if the Ulster Cycle has any real basis in history, i.e. that the events described in the sagas are based on some real events that were later transmogrified into the sagas, they must have happened before 100 BC.

The events in the Ossian Cycle (Fionn MacCumhail and the Fianna), if they ever happened, must have occurred before the end of the fifth century AD, because Tara was abandoned around then.

What I can't figure out is:

* in the Ulster Cycle, everybody was charging around the place in chariots.

* Four hundred years later, everybody walked or rode horses. No mention of chariots!

Where did all the chariots go?

That is a really good question! And I don't have an answer *g*. But I have books and the weekend is coming up--There is at least evidence of various Celtic (for lack of a better term) groups using chariots--burials on the Continent, and the Roman descriptions of the Britons, off the top of my head.
More later--gotta go!

surely some ruins of chariots would have been uncovered by now? Maybe a silly thought .. so I will go back to just reading. *L*

There were timber roadways. The Corlea roadway in Longford(over a mile of oak planks, making a 12 foot wide road) has been dated as 148 BC.
Some bronze bridle-bits have been found in matched pairs, indicating pairs of horses.

Not much evidence of chariots has been found. Some block wheels (made with large pieces of timber, rather than spoked) have been found. A pair in Roscommon were dated at 400 BC.

Yeh, Roisín, there are chariot burials on the Continent. Most of the chariots were four-wheeled vehicles, more like carts than what we know from Roman times, where they had two-wheeled chariots. Some Celtic chariot burials included the whole chariot, with all the components separated and laid out around the corpse. Others just had token chariots, with maybe a couple of wheels and some horse trappings. But, lacie, as far as I know, nothing like this has ever been found in Ireland. There have been some traces of chariots found, but not enough to support any thesis that they were widely used.

Acc, the date of the Corlea Road is interesting. It fits in nicely with some of the mythology stories about a price somebody had to pay for something. I can't remember now, but it was something to do with a roadway between Cruachán and Tara(?).

If anybody wants to see what the Corlea Road looked like, visit Craggaunowen in Co. Clare. There's a short section of it on display there.

Re: 400 BC, Acc. That was just on the transition between the Irish Bronze Age and Iron Age. It's a very fuzzy time in Ireland. There was some Celtic intrusion there at the time, but it doesn't seem to have been widespread. My own view, and I'm probably going against lotsa experts, is that Ireland didn't really start becoming 'Celticised' until about the 3rd century BC. It's just a gut feeling. If I turn out to be right, you can say you read it first in Tír!

I think that the wheels mentioned above are the earliest indication of wheeled transport. There's no record of chariot burials here.

Celtic influences in Ireland would lag behind Europe because of the geography. I think that the idea of a Celtic 'invasion' is discredited now. Things would have spread into Ireland gradually. There seems to be little or no evidence of Hallstatt influence. Barry Raftery has the beginnings of La Tene influence in 3rd century BC, but says that as the artifacts are concentrated in Eastern Ulster and from Meath to Galway, they don't indicate a general Celtic culture at that time.

The Corlea roadway timber was dated by dendochronology, which technique seems to be very accurate now.

Yep, Acc. Dendrochronology is very accurate. Mike Baillie and his team in Queen's University, Belfast, as far as I know, were able to date the Corlea Road. They have dendrochronoligical records going back for a long time before Emain Macha. I suspect 'dendrochronological' is the longest word we've had in Tír so far. Does that win me a cigar?

For those of you who aren't famliar with the term, dendrochronology is the use of tree rings to date pieces of ancient timber, such as those from old buildings and from prehistoric sites. A sample of the timbers from the Corlea bog road was checked against the tree-ring record, and it was possible to date the year the oak trees used to build the road were felled in 148 BC precisely.

I'll get back to the Hallstatt stuff next time. Gotta quench the dragon lady!

Yeah, I went through the Raftery stuff too, Acc. Since wood doesn't preserve well in a wet climate unless it ends up in an airless environment, this doesn't mean as much as it might. Though if those chariots had iron tires, you'd expect something--at least a stain in an excavation where they found the paired bits. There has been some reconstruction work done on wicker chariots in England--it's in a book called _Archaeology by Experiment_ Coles & Coles, I think.

Also, people lose technology all the time. Climate changes, disasters, changing needs all contribute to the process. Chariots could either have been there and then their use abandoned for a variety of reasons, or perhaps they were only a part of the traditional stories--a literary rather than physical idea, or perhaps they never did make it over to Ireland. Also, Ireland hasn't been excavated nearly as extensively as England, and a lot more sites are virtually untouched. The vagaries of preservation might mean that the chariots are yet to be found.

lets leave them untouched ... preserve the myth and let the history sleep.

Yeah, Lacie--I tend to agree--with a few reservations. We tend to excavate quickly, more quickly than we should. I'm talking the evcavation work plus follow-up, mind you. This is partially because good, careful fieldwork and follow-up work takes so frigging long! You can't blame someone for wanting to find out as much as they can in their own lifetime, and excavation is the fun part! Cataloging and writing up results properly is less fun, but absolutely necessary, as a site is destroyed when it is dug. The only record left is the write up and the cataloged materials from the site. This work really has to be done by the excavators, as they know what their field notes mean!

Ireland hasn't been focused on in the past by most archaeologists, and to my mind, this is a blessing, as techniques improve all the time, and so does our understanding of appropriate reconstruction and our own cultural biases. If you want to see a bad example, take a look at the major "reconstruction" work done at Knossos :). If you want a good example, take a look at the recent excavations at Bath, where only half the site was dug during a renovation effort. If we dig slowly, carefully, and with respect, we stand to recover a lot more information about Ireland than we have in other areas. This is especially important, IMHO because we have so little unbiased history and written records.

OK--off the soapbox, I return you to your usual programming.

Glad you got off the soapbox, Roisín, cos I was just about to nudge you over the edge.

Archaeological techniques have changed a lot in recent years. The intrusive 'dig it all up so we can discover something important' mentality has been replaced by a more sensitive approach. At last, the multidisciplinary mentaliy is starting to be appreciated. Even today, historians don't talk to archaeoligists, archaeologists don't talk to archaeo- or paeleobotanists and zoologists, simply because they don't understand each other's language and haven't communicated until recently. But things are changing. In Ireland, at least, the archaeologists no longer excavate a ringfort, for example, and obliterate it from the landscape. They dig a trench or two, and see what they can find, and record and report their findings. They leave the rest of the site for later investigators, who will probably have better technology that will be less intrusive, and therefore less destructive. A good example was the discovery in Britain of a Bronze Age temple, constructed from timber poles that have long since disappeared, using a magnetometer that could detect subtle changes in the earth's magnetic field on the site. Use of similar technology has discovered a previously unknown ritual site in Ireland, a few miles north of Newgrange.

So, times are changing. Digging up burial sites, and consequent removal of the romanticism from the stories, isn't as important as it used to be to learn about the past.

Having said that, I'd love to find a Tara Brooch or an Ardagh Chalice in my garden as I dig it for sowing the veggies.

I suppose it's a bit like hoping to win the Lottery.

When I was finishing school, the focus was on rescue archaeology--the inevitable consequence of uncontrolled development. Pathetic to even think of choosing between the past and the quick buck, but that's the situation. I'm hoping that soon we'll reach a critical mass of people who think that that's wrong, so we can do more about it than try to rescue what we can in advance of the bulldozers.

I've finally found the message board of my dreams!

So, to stir up the mix:

Am I right in thinking Cathbad was Cuchulainn's granddad?

Simmering homoeroticism between Cuchulainn and Ferdia, and for that matter Cu and Laeg - discuss.

Sualtim - why?

Re Cuchulainn's infidelities - weren't there tons and tons? Fand was the only *important* one, and Aoife didn't really count since Cu and Emer weren't actually married at that point. He also "married" a daughter of Scathach's, not Aiofe (I thought Aiofe was her sister?) prior to marrying Emer, pretty much so he could get on side with Scathach. He shagged Curoi's wife (who subsequently killed herself, I think) and was, in fact, late for the Tain because he'd arranged an "assignation" with a woman which he couldn't get out of. And he overslept.

Another question - if, as in some versions, it was actally geis to Cuchulainn to look at a woman naked, do you think he made them keep their clothes on or just shut his eyes?

Ye gods I feel guilty about my lack of attention to the content of Tír. (Read that any way!)

Cathbad fathered Conchobar. Nice trick! Become a druid, and tell a woman that 'right this minute' would be a good time for begetting a king on a queen. (Just make sure you're the only male around at the moment.)
Conchobar may have been the father of Setanta. The tales are full of gossip. It seems Conchobar's sister Deichtine became pregnant either after a night of drunkeness with him, or else by magic. He married her off, and on her way to the marriage bed, she sicked up the child and became a born-again virgin. When she 'eventually' became pregnant, the child was Setanta.
(You work it out)

"Simmering homoeroticism" ? Warriors in those days simply pleasured each other. Not because they were gay, but because it was convenient.

I'm already over budget on time (maybe next month wil be less hectic).
The Táin and tales around it is full of bawdiness, with double-entendre poems. It's an aspect of our culture that was never imparted to us at school for some reason.
(That and Síle-na-gigs)

I'm deffo going to cover those topics in Tír, but it could be a few months yet.

Not because they were gay but because it was convenient? How about because it was also fun? "Classical" sources, can't name off hand sorry, did refer to the Gauls being wildly and happily bisexual - not perhaps in the romantic love sense but certainly in the "pleasure" sense. Apparently the Gauls used to offer male visitors a choice young man as a bedwarmer if they wanted. I agree, the Tain is gloriously rude, and earthy - there's a reference to Cuchulainn picking lice out of his shirt, as you would, plus he did literally shake the shit out of someone (can't remember who, my Kinsella Tain is mere feet away but getting up is TOO hard)

Re that annoying triple birth of Setanta's - just to make it worse, isn't Conchobar sometimes referred to as Dechtine's father, not brother? Yeesh. Although strange and/or pseudo-incestuous births are pretty standard for heroes, for what I'm told.

Heavens Tamergatroid SUZYCAT !!! Look for the negatives and you shall find them. Bear in mind that most of the content you read isn't even mythology and it's barely gossip. Please do not waste your time giving these issues another consideration. No one ones for certain and adding your opinion only muddies up mythology more. Similare to Morgan Llewelyn's stories. ACCASBEL, I read recently that the Tuatha DeDanann were actually from another planet in another solar system. I'm wondering when that too will become accepted into the Mythological cycles of Eire.Of all the stories in mythology passed down through the years I've never heard of any homosexual or homoerotisicm. Ofcourse even I could well imagine that it existed but I could never state as fact any person or situation. *
When reading mythology, JUST AS IN HISTORY, it is extremely important to review the reference material for there work. Prior to the commercialization of Mythology there existed quite a few works that are considered authoritative. Be careful to identify new developments in mythology cause there aren't any !! Be careful to identify what is mythology and what is the authors modern interpretation and or selective story telling for commercial appeal. *S*

P.S. (And I make that comment with some confidence and certainty. I know I'm not an Academic on the subject but it is a good point just the same).

Wot Fionn??? Ya mean they weren't from another solar system???? Sheeeesh!
I'm aware of the many looney-toons 'embelishments' to mythology, archaeology, etc.
Who knows? There may be many who assume that the people (well, the heros anyway) in the tales were Irish Catholics, pure in spirit, and daily mass attenders.

The tales were passed by word of mouth and then writen by people with a certain religious agenda. None of it can be read as 'fact'. I see it an an interpretation of the life and times of the storytellers.
The hints of bawdiness and homo-whatzit don't upset my picture of the times.
Such things may have been less 'negative' in those times.

Down through the ages, same-sex-bonding of an intense kind seems to have been common where groups of same-sex have cut themselves off to an extent from general society.

A theory that Setanta did not conform to today's image of a macho hero does not detract from the thrust of the tales.
Asserting that he wore a space-suit would be a tad extreme however.

*LOL* Agreed Acc. Fully agreed upon !!

Ten points fionn and acca for sticking to the sources - bear in mind though that there are quite a few different "original" versions around, due to the myths' verbal origins. My top versions are Kinsella's Tain and Eleanor Hull's The Cucullin Saga in Irish Literature (1898), so there! Unfortunately I can't read modern Irish, let alone the ancient stuff, so my chances of scoring a copy of the yellow book of Lecan or the Book of the Dun Cow are limited... :)

BUT I admit my homoeroticism suggestion is primarily a stir. It was suggested to me at a party in London some years ago by a guy who had apparently chanced upon a net discussion similar to this one, in which various people debated the potential "queerness" of Cuchulain and decided, apparently, that he was "latently gay". Go figure! Sexuality aside, however, Cuchulain's attachment to Ferdia is indeed intense and his distress at killing him understandable - by Tain standards it's pretty excessive though. THREE laments???

Compare it with Conall Cernach's behaviour on the death of Cuchulainn, and Emer's heartbreaking lament. I find the story of Cu's death extraordinarily sad and beautiful - pity it's not included in as many books as some of the other stories.

I think if we treat Irish mythology as literature, and I think we should, it's completely acceptable, if not vital, to "interpret". We interpret other texts - why not the Setanta/Cuchulain material? Once a text is out there it becomes public property, and as such not only up for interpretation but up for grabs.

I think it's indicative of the very special quality of Cuchulain as a character that so many "fans" get upset at an interpretation of him that doesn't match our own. Did anyone read the Michael Scott "Irish Myths and Legends" rendition? Ugh! Well, that's how I saw it.

Although the myths are clearly myths, and presumably there to reveal greater truths about life the universe etc, I hold to the belief that the Red Branch stories also probably paint a reasonably accurate picture of life in ancient Ireland - as the ancient Irish would perhaps have liked it to be! (Sort of like Lifestyles of the Rich and Partly Faery). Thus, the relationships we see depicted between people must surely tell us something about the way the Irish, at that time, liked to relate. I find the relationship between Cuchulainn and Laeg really interesting - obviously a warrior and his charioteer would have to trust each other and know each other extremely well in order to work as a team. It's interesting the way Laeg gets away with insulting Cuchulainn in battle when he's flagging (in order to goad him into fresh fury) and I notice that on more than one occasion he uses the term "squinting". A reference to Cu's seven-pupiled eyes, perhaps?

Of course it's Cuchulainn in his more human aspect that I've always enjoyed most. For a mythological character Cuchulainn sometimes displays behaviours that are, to my mind, charmingly human. It's ridiculous to try and invent "reasons" based in fact, history and cod-psychology to explain how he could simultaneously be small and unprepossessing, yet terrifically handsome, yet have seven fingers and toes on each limb, 7 pupils in each eye and multicoloured spots on his face, not to mention being either dark haired or have hair of three colours depending on the story (although you CAN arguably refer to limewashing for that one). Cuchulainn and co are certainly not real. The fact that we tend to treat them as such attests to the incredible power of the stories and , even more, the charisma of the characters.

Sorry to go on so long but this is a subject I'm passionate about and it's incredibly rare for me to be able to discuss it!

Re Mass-going catholics: But of course they WOULD have been had they known! Didn't you read the Demon Chariot of Cuchulainn?

SuzyCat,
Those are some strong observations there but I'm afraid you got me. I read the stories for enjoyment and really haven't "studied" them. Now hold on one second darlin..... Cu wasn't real? Abso-bloody-lutely he was !! Some of his feats and stories may be exxagerrated but he was most definetly real.
Please tell me what you think of my FAV mythology great, "Lugh the Long Arm" Cuchulainn's Da?

I don't feel any less Irish for not holding it as dogma that the people in the tales were single individuals who existed at the time.
They are part of an oral tradition. Their stories are part of my heritage, my conciousness.
However, I don't require that they be 'real' in order to validate my being.

The scibes who wrote down the tales were not reporters. They were collectors of folklore/mythology. They also had a religious agenda.

Wow! What a wonderful discussion to come back to! Suzycat, you rock!

I love the Tain for many of the same reasons--nothing got edited. The cynical discussion Medb and Ailill have about using Findabair's *ahem* charms to get warriors to fight with the Cu didn't pull any punches. If I were a warrior, it would have made me think as I was listening to it. That's one of the things I love best about mythology--it opens the doors to thought, rather than closing them. It's the reader who is left to do that for themselves.

As far as the "homoeroticism" in the Tain--it was a different time, and people had no need to draw such a rigid separation when it came to sexuality. It's only in the last few hundred years that we have chosen to use that as a bargaining chip and dividing line. You can look forever in the Tain, and you will never be able to draw any real conclusions, other than Irish warriors sometimes slept with each other. Maybe we'll get over that particular way of keeping score soon. I hope so.

As far as the Tain being "real"-- like any good Irish Tale, it is, and it isn't. The Irish, like Alice, made a habit of believing three impossible things before breakfast. Mythology was never meant to make literal sense, but when you deal with an oral culture, where history and mythology are one, and time is cyclical, things get interesting. The Tain and Tales like it are teaching me what a straitjacket linear time is, and how cyclical time must have been similar. Merging them is a trick I wonder if we'll ever master.

Themightyfionn

How was Cu real? Proof please! I've not heard this before... oh no, what if he was less attractive than in my dreams???? How could I reconcile my girlhood crush then???? (Embarrassingly, this is not a joke.)

I'm not overly familiar with old Lugh apart from having picked up a number of similarities between him and Cu... will go and re-read and get back to you. I did like the bit where he turned up to take Cuchulainn's place during the Tain itself, or is that only a Rosemary Sutcliff-ism?

Thanks for the compliment Roisin!

Hi all, especially Roisín. It's great to be back. No, Suzycat, it's not Sutcliff-ism. Lugh did give Cú a helping hand in the Táin. You mentioned earlier you only have Kinsella's Táin. Cecile O'Rahilly has translated and published the version in the Book of Leinster. I don't have the ISBN number here but if you search for Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies you should find it.

Re: homoeroticism, it fairly abounds in Irish mythology, and not just in the Ulster Cycle. In fact, not just in mythology. Take the following:

'On the day I arrived the ship had weighed anchor. I explained that I had the wherewithall to sail with them. And that day, furthermore, I refused, for fear of God, to suck their nipples.'

That's an extract from St. Patrick's Confession.

The Kinsella Tain has Lugh helping out the Cu as well. And his part in the triple birth is in the remscelae as well. Though I still haven't picked up a copy of the O'Rahilly Tain yet Shae--I'm jealous ;-).

Does anyone have any sources that specify the Cu as a real person? I haven't run across any other than the myths themselves, and I'm curious. Is there anything that gives him the same flavor of reality that St. Patrick's Confessio gives? That sort of distinction just wasn't important to the ancient Irish--there was no question that mythic people were real, and could step out of the Otherworld at any time.

As far as homoeroticism goes, you'd be hard pressed to find any prechristian mythology that doesn't have references to it. To my mind, this is why later literature is so specific about how "bad" it is. I also have an interesting trial transcript from 17th cent. Germany where the female cross-dresser was hung, and the femme was sent home to Daddy... She *swore* she had no *idea* her husband wasn't a man *cute pose, finger in mouth*. There's also the example of Joan of Arc. I don't think such dire attempts to stamp it out would have seemed necessary if this sort of thing wasn't a normal part of life in ancient times.

And it's good to see you again, Shae--and wonderful to meet a fellow mythology addict, Suzycat!

No, Roisín, I haven't seen Cú anywhere outside the Ulster Cycle either. As to whether or not he was a real person, it's possible he was at some stage. I don't have anything to back it up, but my own feeling is that Cú, and possibly all the events in the Táin, may have been folk memories of people and events that happened long before the Celts came to Ireland. We mentioned earlier about the use of chariots in the Ulster Cycle, yet they don't appear in the later Ossian Cycle, nor has any archaeological evidence of their use been found in Ireland - carts yes, but no chariots. Yet they were widely used on continental Europe, as attested by the chariot burials at Halstatt and other places. So, it seems to me that if the events described in the Táin were based on real happenings, they must have happened on the continent and were part of the folklore carried to Ireland by the Celts around the 3rd century BCE where they were 'Hibernicised.' As with most folklore, heroes often develop superhuman (as opposed to supernatural) powers over time, as Cú did.

The Hibernicisation of the myths could have happened in either of two ways that come to mind, but I'm sure there could be others. Either the Celts brought the stories to Ireland, as I mentioned, or they were already in Ireland when the Celts arrived, having been brought here by the pre-Celtic inhabitants. We know there was commerce between Ireland and mainland Europe during the early Iron Age because a small number of Halstatt pieces have been found here. It is generally believed that these pieces were either brought to Ireland by Irish traders or were manufactured here by pre-Celtic Irish who had seen similar objects on the continent. If iron artifacts, or knowledge of how to make them, could make their way from the continent to Ireland, then stories and myths could too and, if that was the case, then some of the Celtic myths were already established in Ireland before the Celts arrived. It could explain why the Irish Celtic deities are different in many ways to those of the continental Celts. Some, such as Lugh and Briget, made their way to Ireland, but they are mixed in with deities that are exclusive to Ireland, such as the rest of the Tuatha Dé Danann and the Fomori. Epona, the continental goddess associated with horses, for example, never made it to Ireland, where she is replaced by Macha.

So, is it possible that most of the Tuahta Dé Danann and the Fomori were the deities of the pre-Celtic Irish, who adopted some of the Celtic deities prior to the arrival of the Celts, or did the Celts bring just some of their continental deities and then adopt those of the natives?

If we apply the same theory (and that's ALL it is!) to the Ulster Cycle, then it's possible that the real Cú, if he existed, wasn't Irish at all, but could have been Gaulish or even Hungarian!

Somebody prove me wrong! Please?

Prove you wrong? I don't see how I could-- that's a wonderful summary, Shae. Whether the characters of the Tain are real or not, the details of the world they lived in definitely are. Whether those details apply to the continent, the British Isles as a whole, or simply Ireland is another story ;-). Luckily, we have archaeological evidence to help us sort some of that out.

On a tangent--What do people think of building a list of all the recensions and retellings of the Tain, and maybe bringing them into the discussion?

To get the ball rolling, has anyone else heard Horslips version, an album called "Tain"? What did you think of it if so? It didn't quite hold to all of the story, I didn't think, but I still liked it a lot and thought it added to my understanding of the Tale. While all the words weren't there, the flavor was, and like the storytellers that came before, Horslips recast it into the language of their time and so brought it forward. If Tales are borne on the breath, and originally were not supposed to be written down, a recording is a happy medium between the two. I wonder what the wise ones would have thought of sound/video recordings of their performances? It would have preserved far more of the meanings they gave their tellings than words on a page.

Guess that was the morning Castles in the Air post. Just spent a lovely weekend at a Faire, and heard the most amazing storyteller. I can well see the difference between cold storage between the pages of a book, and the real thing. He did his job well, I can't get his tellings out of my head, and wouldn't want to.

Good idea, Roisín. I have Thomas Kinsella's and Cecile O'Rahile's translations. Kinsella's version draws on a number of different old texts and combines them, whereas O'Rahile's is a translation from the Book of Leinster and doesn't include some material found in Kinsella. I haven't heard the Horslips' version - didn't even know about it - so I must look out for it. I have seen Lady Gregory's retelling but haven't read it. As I mentioned some time earlier, many stories from the Ulster Cycle are retold at

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/6084/index.html

and there's a translation of what seems to be the Book of Leinster version, with Irish text, at

http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/Cooley

I'm reading the Kinsella translation at the moment. His drawing material from a number of sources seems sensible to me. The versions would have had an original common source.
Passages not largely shared by versions should not necessarily be discounted. The tales are not history. They are an interpretation of past societies and dreams.

I remember the Horslips 'LP' - way back in the 60's that was. (Or am I thinking of their father's??)
I've always fancied that as a soundtrack to a massive light show - sort of Galway Arts Festival on speed.


As a postscript - I should move this thread over to the Mythology, .... section. I should also break it into sub-threads. It's getting saga-ish.

I was trying to keep to the Cuchullain theme for just that reason, Acc-- I was listening to Horslips "The Book of Invasions" at the time and went back to the "Tain" as a wild attempt to keep on topic.. Yeah, it was the same group, Acc, and they have just been reissued in the last couple of years. "Tain, "The Book of Invasions" and "Drive the Cold Winter Away" were unavailable for a long time. All three of them are welll worth a listen!

OK--so we have the following:

Thomas Kinsella _The Tain_
Lady Gregory _Cuchulain of Muirthemne_
Eleanor Hull (translation--I don't have the name)
Cecile O'Rahilly _Tain Bo Cuailnge_ (I think?? Shae?)
Horslips _Tain_ (recording)
Morgan Llywellyn _Red Branch_ (yes, I know, but it sticks close to the source and preserves the spirit, IMO)

Any others?
And you're right, Acc--this page is beginning to take a *while* to load! You truly have the spirit of a brewy, you have made a wonderful home for a fascinating discussion!

Sorry, Acc, I didn't mean to criticise Kinsella's version, if that's the way it came across. I think the fact that he includes stories from a number of different sources gives a better overall view of the entire Táin. For example, he includes the story of how the two bulls came into being which, as far as I can remember, isn't in O'Rahile's translation. I think, too, that Kinsella's translation is the more readable of the two, although he loses some of the little nuances that are found in O'Rahile's more direct, but more heavy-going, translation.

One I forgot, Roisín, and it's sitting right beside me, is:

Cross and Slover_Ancient Irish Tales_
Barnes and Noble, ISBN 1-56619-889-5

I forgot to mention too that there are two versions of O'Rahile's 'Táin Bó Cuailnge' (yes, Roisín). One doesn't have the English translation so be careful which one you get if anybody is thinking of investing.

Not so much pure Tain but retellings of Cuchulainn's story can be found in:

Hooray! Sutcliff, Rosemary "The Hound of Ulster" - I know it's meant to be a kids' book but even re-reading it as an adult I found it as intense, strange and compelling as ever. Plus hands up whose first encounter with the Cu and co was via this book?

Boo! Scott, Michael, "Irish Myths and Legends" IBSN0 7474 0885 8. In which Cuchulainn is a nasty ginger psychopath. Interesting approach, but I hated it.

Plus: I also remember finding a kids' book when I was 14 or so which featured a bunch of kids travelling back in time (that old stalwart) and finding themselves privy to the events of the Tain... they were with the Connaught mob. Sound familiar to anyone? I'd love to track it down again.

El cheapo repackaged versions of very elderly books, alas undated, seem to abound in bookshops where I live these days; I have a copy of TW Rolleston's Celtic Myths and Legends which features the "Ultonian" legends, and comes with a handy Red Branch family tree and lots of twee "Celtic Twilight" pictures.

I'd love to hear how you all found your ways to the Tain. My lifelong best friend lent me Sutcliff's book aged 12 and I was hooked. Being but a plastic paddy, it didn't form part of my schooling or anything...

On a more shitstirring note: just how many different spellings/versions of Cuailnge/Cooley/Quelgney(!) are there, do you think?

I've only ever seen the first two - Cuailnge, which is the Irish name for the place, and Cooley, the Anglicised version. Incidentally, Cuailnge, which is a range of hills in Co. Louth, was named after a Milesian chief, Cuailnge, who was killed there while pursuing the Tuatha Dé Danann after their defeat at Teltown in Co. Meath. And before Acc starts hopping up and down, there is a link with the thread. Teltown is the Anglicised version of Tailtiu, who was Lugh's foster mother and who was buried there, and we've already seen that Lugh has close connections with CúChulainn.

I've seen "coolin", but I can't remember where.
My first encounter with the Tain was in a Celtic literature course about 5 years ago. Whether this makes me newbie, egghead, or furriner, I don't know *grin*.

Ach! I will do a Sheela section, but I just came across a good page, so I'll add it here.
Read down the page a bit to get to the Irish Churches.
http://www.askelm.com/p980927a.htm

Thank you Accasbel for the link! I found it very interesting to say the least. *G*

"Aside from the transformative religious mysteries of sacrifice and initiation, the obvious life-giving and growth-promoting powers of the vulva and its secretions have given rise to a widespread use of representations of the female genitalia as apotropaic devices. The custom of plowing a furrow for magical protection around a town was practiced all over Europe by peasants. It was still observed in the twentieth century in Russia, where villages were thus annually 'purified.' The practice was exclusively carried out by women, who, while plowing, called on the moon goddess.

Okay..LOL...this is very interesting. When I was out plowing the fields as a young girl I often hopped off the tractor, squatted, and...you know! There was definitely a full moon in broad daylight. *blushing* Maybe that is why my dad was such a successful farmer...ten daughters out plowing and squatting in the fields? Hey, all we had for cover was the Sagebrush Inn and often had to sit and drip-dry. Hehehe!

We also ran around half naked...is this an ancient pagan practice or just the vanity of wanting few white lines on the tan before tanning beds? And I always wondered who designed the Washington monument? Probably an Irishman? And a certain four letter F-word is actually another term for the furrow spoken of above...hence... *blushing* Well, ask any good farmer about planting the seeds in the furrow...a good F***. Hmmm...shoulda been raised in the city. *G*

The F word is actually an acronym from English Law that is: For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge

Ummm. . . Acc, there are a few inaccuracies in that article. One in particular is the meaning of Sheela-na-gig. Sheela, or Síle, means femininity, but it also means 'hag' or 'spiritual woman.' The word 'gig' is usually interpreted as 'gcioch', meaning 'breasts' or possibly 'giob', meaning 'buttocks.' The most favoured meaning is 'the hag of the breasts' - not what is said in the article.

Yup! I have to admit that I didn't read the whole thing.
What caught me eye (I was searching for references to Cloyne Cathedral) was the images.
We had questions above as to what they actually looked like.

What do you know about Niamh, the young girl who was with Cu Chulainn in the Glean-na-Bodhar?

I only know of one Niamh associated with Cu Chulainn. There is some confusion in the myths about her and it's not clear if two different Niamhs are involved. The one I know about was the daughter of Celtchair and wife of Conall Cernach and there is some suggestion that she was Cu Chulainn's lover. In Cu Chulainn's 'Death Tale,', she tried to persuade him not to go to battle with the children of Calatin but he insisted on going. As far as I know, his last words to her were:

'Truly woman, thought I was fey
I did not meet my match
I guarded my honour
My prowess was not stolen
I do not avoid my death.'

But Lendabair daughter of Eoghan mac Durthact was Conall Cernach's wife, wasn't she?

You have me there, Guest! Eoghan mac Durthacht was one of the people who was involved in the murder of the Sons of Uisniu but I don't know anything about his daughter.

My source for Niamh (Niab) being Conall Cernach's wife is: 'Two Death Tales from the Ulster Cycle: the Death of Cu Roi and the Death of Cu Chulainn,' translated from the Irish by Maria Tymoczko, Dolmen Press (Dublin) and Humanities Press Inc (N. America), 1981, p. 40.

Any references to Lendabair would be appreciated.

I don't know from which source it is taken, but in Lady Gregory's book,before his feast had begun, Bricriu went to CuCulainn, Lugaid , Conall Cernach and their wives to stir it up, and in that episode Lendabair was Conall's wife.

You're right! The version of 'Fled Bricrend (The Feast of Bricriu)' in the Book of the Dun Cow, names all the 'queens' of Ulster who were at the feast. The translation I have gives: '...Lendabair, daughter of Eogan mac Durthacht, wife of Conall the Victorious...,' but the Irish script says: '...Lendabair, ingen Eogain maic Durthacht, ben Conaill Cernaig. .'

This doesn't mean that Conaill Cernach had several wives, although it wasn't unknown among the early Irish. The most likely reason for the confusion is that several Conaills appear in the sagas and different scribes, writing in different centuries, mixed some of them up with each other.

It is also possible that Conaill Cernach had a main wife and one or two other 'wives.' Early Irish law allowed for a man to have concubines who had certain rights and who were regarded as 'wives' in law, but their rights were always secondary to those of the main wife.

Er...what does "ben" mean? Woman?

"Ben" is my eldest son, who now has his learner driving permit, which means I my nerves are shot to hell after a weekend of teaching!!

Your eldest son is Conall Cernach's wife?
This discussion is more and more complicated

Poor Lacie!!! It's bad enough having to give driving lessons to Ben without suddenly discovering he's Conall Cernach's wife too!!! I can tell you from personal experience that nobody should try to teach other family members to drive!!

Guest, 'Ben' is Old/Middle Irish (I'm not sure which) for 'woman' or 'woman of. . ' somebody. In modern Irish it's 'bean' pronounced 'bann' and not legume! 'Bean céile' means 'the married woman of somebody' = somebody's wife. So it's possible that 'ben Conaill Cernaig' could mean 'Conall Cernach's woman' or 'Conall Cernach's wife.' I'll try to find out what is meant in this case.

Something you should bear in mind about Lady Gregory's 'CuChulain of Muirthemne' is that she wrote it for the local people who could not understand the Irish in which the stories were originally written, and she has omitted some stories that she thought they 'would not care about for one reason or another. .'

ROTFLMAO !!

the driving lessons are going well, actually .... the rest, well, I can see a long 'mother / son' discussion coming! He is just TOO young to be anyones wife.

Shae, what does the "Ben" in Ben Bulben, the name of the mountain near Lady Gregory's home, mean then?

Ben in this case means a mountain peak. The Irish spelling is 'beann,' and 'Ben' is the anglicised pronunciation. Benburb, in Co. Tyrone, is Beann-borb, the proud peak. Howth, in Co. Dublin, is Ben Edar (Edair) in Irish, the Peak of Edar. Benbulben is actually a misnomer. The original name is Binn-Gulbain, Gulban's Peak.

Ah, Shae...a question for you...since we are discussing topographical features.

Slieve...as in Slieve League. Cliffs? Or a ridge of a mountain?

awwwwwwwwwe .. lets 'give over' ??

Shae is NOT meant to be the "Tir knower of all".. or the search engine!!!

Lets ALL try to find our own answer, BEFORE we ask Shae???

Have you ever heard about a certain Finscoth, daughter of Cu Culainn?

Shae,

Lacie seems offended that we honour your vast knowledge by asking simple questions. If it does offend you, please forgive me.

My intention was not to burden you or to use you as a search engine. It was meant merely in the camaraderie and friendship that I thought Tir was supposed to represent. It is the first question I have asked of you and will be the last if it distresses you in any way.

My impression is that these message boards are a means of spreading some information and humour amongst ourselves, not to chastise each other. It would seem that almost every question asked here could have been "looked up" in other sources. But isn't it a bit more fun just to ask each other?

Respectfully yours,
Seamus McCool

This is Shae, not Guest! Tir won't accept my password, or else we're getting too close to Bealtaine and the piseogs are running riot. Or something.

Seamus, I think lacie was just echoing a plea I made a few days ago when I asked people to try to find the answers themselves first. I'm sure her comment wasn't directed at you specifically. As you say, the answer to almost every question could be looked up but it might take a long time for someone who doesn't have ready access to the sources, especially if they're obscure or not easily available.

I have to admit I've never been called a search engine before!! I'm still cogitating!

Anyway, to your question! "Slieve" is the anglecised version of the Irish "sliabh" which means "mountain." It's pronounced "shleeve," as in "Didn't I tell ya not ta wipe yer shnot wit the shleeve of yer jumper!!!" Slieve League, in Donegal, is Sliabh-liag, the mountain of the flagstones.

Guest asked about Finscoth. I've come across only one mention of her which says the name means "wine-blossom" and she is mentioned in the later sagas as CuChulainn's daughter. I'd appreciate any more information.

Sorry, Shea. I did not see your post on the other board requesting the rest of us to use our own resources first. My sincere apologies.

And please note, while you are cogitating, I was not the one to refer to you as a search engine.

Thank you kindly for your answer. I was much impressed with Slieve League (or Sliabh-liag...or Shleeve Leeg *g* ) when I visited Donegal in June 1999.

For all the very very very erudite people of the Tir: may you forget your dispute and answer my question about Finscoth? Thank you

This would be an excellent time to point out the difference between 'a dispute' and 'a misunderstanding'.

I've never made out a list of rules / terms of service / etc. Specific rules seem to me to be somewhat insulting to the intelligence of people. If they need to be told then they're too far gone to be here.

Somewhere I've written "no personal abuse" on a rare occasion when intelligence seemed to be wanting.

Maybe this is a time when I should add
"Make no demands on people."

jaysus!! .. talk about over reaction! *L* (which is usually MY domain!! *L*)

Seamus .. give it a rest, will ya? Shae (and the rest of the world) know that 1. it was said with tongue in cheek (a safe place for it) and 2. it is me that got poor, dear Shae into this "Shae the search engine" mess .. but that is a loooong time ago, so you are excused, as it was waaaaaaaaaaay before your time .. any of your peronalities *smile*.

dear Guest. there was no dispute. merely a conversation, sparked by your question ...... one of the joys of the message boards here in Tir na nOg!! *smile*

Glad to see you were kidding Lacie, guess I missed it too.... now which cheek was your tongue in? Haahaa!!!! :)

Setanta....hmmmmm all I knew about Setanta before reading this message board was that it was the name of the company which used to broadcast by means of satellite live Glasgow Celtic Football matches at the Abbey pub in San Francisco. Go the Bhoys!

...and I thought setanta was the Italian word for the number 70....*G*

Dunno if it's still operating, Jumm, but it also used broadcast Irish and Scottish sporting events to Irish clubs and so forth in England.

I can't remember if I mentioned it already somewhere but the correct spelling is Sétanta which, in Old Irish, was pronounced Shay-dan-da. Emphasis on the 'Shay.'

Do you know Italian, Seamus?

My God!I've seen some Sheela-na-gigs' pictures, and they're horrible! Is possible that the ancient (not so much, after all) Irish artists were still at a such primitive point?

Horrible? They're gorgeous!!!

Well, I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for Irish artists of the time being primitive, have a look at some of the other artifacts and sculptings done around the same time. A browse through this site will give you an idea of the quality of Irish metalwork from the time. Have a look for the Cross of Cong.

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/overbey/shrines/shrines-Full.00006.html

I don't have a web-site with examples of architecture from the period but you should see some if you search for places like Mellifont, Monasterboice and Tuam.

There's no doubt that Sheelas appear to be primitive but they were done that way deliberately and it took quite an amount of artistic skill to make them look so hideous. The big question is why!

There's quite a few web-sites on Sheelas but only a few good ones. Here's a selection:

http://www.members.tripod.com/~taramc/sheelas.html

http://www.jharding.demon.co.uk/

http://jlschubert.tripod.com/

Si, Guest, io so un po' italiano. E Lei?
Mi dispiace. La parola è settanta, non setanta.

Sì, anch'io, ma dammi pure del tu! Ciao gente dell'isola smeraldina!

Gorgeous?!? It's hard to compare a Phidias' Venus with a Sheela-na-gig, and as regards the other handmades, they're nothing special if compared with the coeval continental works.

Er...my grammatical mistakes aren't gorgeous at all,too...

Yes, it's a difficult comparison to make but I think a better one would be with the Venus of Willendorf or with the Baubo figures from the Middle East. Their function isn't known for sure, but it's fairly certain that Sheela-na-gigs weren't intended to be works of art.

Although, in my opinion, the quality of late medieval Irish metalwork compares very favourably with that of the continent, it's true that Irish ecclesiastical architecture doesn't. There's nothing comparible to Cluny or Ely cathedrals, for example. The main reason is the difference between the organisation of the Irish Church and that on the continent. Until the middle of the 12th century, the Irish Church was based on a monastic system and church buildings were small and unadorned. Even when Romanesque style was introduced to Ireland (the earliest is 1134), the buildings remained small and only the portals and chancel arches were decorated. The style of decoration combined elements of Irish, Anglo-Norman and Nordic art and is sufficiently different to that of the continent to be called "Irish-" or "Hiberno-Romanesque."

Just a personal observation with no evidence to back it up, I tend to favor the theory that they were the Crone Goddess welcoming Heros and others back into the womb to be reincarnated. I recall reading that often Celt and other Warrior people would consume part of a fallen heroic warrior when he died to ensure that the warrior would be reborn into their family. That smacks of the tales of Etain / Edain being swallowed while in insect form only to be reborn as the daughter of the one who swallowed her.

I'd be grateful if you could let me know where you read about Celtic warriors consuming parts of fallen foes, Daryl. I haven't come across it before. The Celts *did* decapitate their opponents and hung the heads on their doorways in the belief they would provide protection, but I've never heard of them eating their enemies.

Another thing: how could the ancient Irish people don't know the bow?

It was in a Documentary I have titled "The Celts" By Gerhard Herm, if I recall properly. I am holding the book in my hand trying to find the reference to it, but the thing is indexed so poorly, that I would have to read the book again to give you a page number. This reference was related to the Continental Celts rather than those of Ireland.